Rahab interviewed by Florian Dammasch of Ablaze
1. There are not too many BM bands in the Dutch scene it
seems, in fact only Liar of Golgotha is pretty well-known,
and Altar is no BM band at all. Nevertheless there’s no band
with the quality standard of Ordo Draconis. What did you do
different (and better obviously) than other bands, what makes
you so special? Does it make you proud to be the top of a
whole country’s BM scene (I’m sure you are!)?
Rahab: No warming up rounds – a tough question to start off
with! Let me start by saying that I consider the composing
and playing of music as an artistic expression. I do not think
art and competition go together. So I’ll have to answer you
question negatively – I am not proud of „our position“ in
the scene, because I don’t think in such terms. I wouldn‘t
be able to think of a criterium to determine a band’s ranking….
But if one would suggest it should be sales-figures, bands
like Liar of Golgotha and Cirith Gorgor are way ahead of us.
However, I most certainly am proud of the things that we have
accomplished with Ordo Draconis so far, with the recent release
of our debut full-length album „The Wing & The Burden“ as
a highlight for the time being. Since each band has their
own goals as for what they want to achieve, it’s pretty difficult
to speak about a „quality standard“ in general terms. The
fact that music is subject to preference/taste colours one’s
judgement as far as the quality of band goes. I wouldn’t dare
saying there’s no other band around in the Dutch black metal
scene applying the same qualitity standard as we do. To me
it’s kind of irrelevant too. Within Ordo Draconis we have
our own goals and the band-internal quality standard is the
only one that makes sense to me. Eversince we started out
with Ordo Draconis we have applied the basic rule „either
we are going to do the things we do as good as we can, or
we won’t do them at all“. We firmly believe in the things
we do and the music we are creating and this makes it easier
to invest in that. I can only tell you why Ordo Draconis is
so special to me – Ordo Draconis‘ music is a projection of
my being which reveals my core, my essence. I have a very
strong „relationship“ with our songs and an even stronger
one with specific individual parts/riffs – they all carry
a certain charge or burden, that I added when I composed them
or heard/played them for the first. I think I am able to recall
the specific circumstances of composing for my entire contibution
to the bands work. Apart from the music itself, the synergy
within the band is very dear to me. Ordo Draconis consists
of five individuals with their own view on things and their
own personal qualities. So far I think we have succeeded pretty
well in setting collective goals and maximizing the usage
of our individual qualities to the band’s advantage.
2. Ordo still is a rather young band, actually such mature
bands are mostly already older than you. What gives you these
visionary, unresting spirit to play music and to work so hard
to realize these goals?
Rahab: I think there are two aspects of importance. First
the urge to create, music in our case. I get a great sense
of satisfaction out of composing and I love it‘s dynamic process,
sometimes devastating, sometimes leading to euphoria, always
exhausting, yet never boring. When the transition from soul
to mind and from mind to the various instruments is made succesfully
there is this orgasmic sensation – maybe that sounds silly
but it’s the closest comparison I can think of in terms of
intensity and euphoria. It should be clear that our music
is very personal to me as well as to the other band members.
It’s only logical then that we want to „preserve“ it in a
way that honours our songs, so by recording them decently.
The second aspect deals with the presentation and the spreading
of the music. The urge to compose will always be stronger
than me and if other people will hear what I’ve created or
not is subordinate, or even irrelevant in that matter. However
I would be lying if I was to say that I don’t care at all
about what other people think about our music. Ordo Draconis‘
music means a great deal to me and it surely gives me satisfaction
if it means something (special) to others as well, if they
can relate to it in some sense. We all are proud of our creations
and we want to present to others what we have made. Apart
from personal taste and a longing for perfection, it is only
practical to present your material in a decent way, in order
to reach as many people that might like our music as possible.
3. Imagine Ordo would’ve been founded 10 years ago, in
the beginning of the 90s. Do you think it would’ve been the
same revolutionary music like it is today, or did you need
some „idols“ to influence your work? What would be the position
Ordo had if you had started 5 years earlier with the same
standard like today?
Rahab: I really don’t know what would have happened if we
had started out 10 years ago. The music would have been different
for sure - we were different persons back then obviously and
many musical influences have affected me in these last ten
years. I’m not too fond of the word „idol“ – it brings to
mind a certains association of worship, but of course there
are bands and artists, both in and outside the metals scene,
that I respect a lot and that have affected me in my musical
development. This holds for every band member, I guess. In
the end every musician has his or her influences, that’s simply
inevitable. It’s just a matter of how one deals with these
influences. It has never been our aim to copy another band,
we try and blend our influences together to forge something
new. I do not think I am the right person to comment on weither
or not our music is or would have been revolutionary. During
the first couple of years it has struck me a couple of times,
like "If only we had been there a little earlier, things would
have been so much easier with fewer bands around and stuff“…
but we weren’t and I guess I prefer looking at the band’s
future. Throughout the existence of Ordo Draconis I think
we have grown more and more self-conscious; we know our qualities
and our restrictions and I am pretty much at piece with that.
There are still so many things I would like to try and experience
– it’s more constructive to work towards future goals than
to mourn over possible opportunities if the band would have
existed earlier, I think.
4. You’ve sold over 1000 copies of your demo tape, which
is more than impressive for today’s standards. The material
on that demo still is very good I think, and you’ve already
re-recorded „A Crimson Dawn“ for the album – so, will you
use the songs from that demo anywhere again? Are there still
request on the tape?
Rahab: I almost totally sure that we will not use any more
songs from „When the Cycle Ends“ in their original form. We
re-recorded „A Crimson Dawn“, because we had the opinion it
could have been better than the demo-version eversince we
recorded. The flutes were already intended for the original
version, but it was impossible to properly record them back
then. Though I generally prefer the first version of a song
– I guess my rather conservative character is to blame here
– I think we did a good job on this one. The CD-version is
more aggressive and thet suits the song and I really love
Bob’s guitar solo, playing in harmony with the low whistle.
I would like the idea of using the main theme from „The Nightwander“
someday, but I still have to find a suitable purpose for it.
Don’t know if it will ever happen. The demo tape is as good
as sold out. Over 1200 copies have been spread and indeed
there’s still a request for the tape
5. After the demo your style changed quite a lot, became
much more independent, aggressive and „own“. What caused that
radical and fast development within only about one and a half
year?
Rahab: I’m not able to point out a specific cause – in my
view changes never have been that radical. There never has
been a point where we said: “Now we are going to do things
differently!“. The only reason I can think of is a development
in composing/arranging-skills as well as in playing skills.
I mean, when we recorded our demo-tape Midhir and myself were
handling our instruments less than a year and you can imagine
that technical capacities sometimes were an obstacle in realizing
what we really wanted. Apart from that, I guess the start
of a band is characterized by a period of crystalisation –
everything has to take shape: the division of tasks within
the band, the way of composing, of communicating as well as
an understanding about and a view on the music itself. I’m
not saying there’s no development in such matters today, but
back then Ordo Draconis was a tabula rasa and that’s not the
case anymore. As for the speed of our development, I think
it’s mainly due to ambition to improve, to become a better
musician and a better composer. We constantly try to push
our limits a little further and I guess our general approach
towards our music helps to improve: In principle the composition
as such is „sacred“ and it often happens that we have a long
way to go, when the composing is done, before we actually
are able to properly play the parts. It’s always an interesting
challenge though and I have the belief that the compostion
has to big an intrinsic value to simply adjust it to where
you’re standing as far as playing skills go. I can imagine
that the results of this approach were most noticable during
the earliest period of the band’s existence. The steps of
progress are always the biggest at the beginning of a learning-curve.
6. Already back in 1999 it was obvious that Ordo aims for
higher goals (in the artistic sense) than most bands ever
will. What might be the final endpoint of the development
you’ve taken, what is the „ideal“ you try to reach?
Rahab: There’s not a fixed „final destination“ – I think that
would only have a stagnating influence on the band’s development.
The development of the band is a goal in itself: improving
our musical and composing skills in order to capture the specific
atmospheres and emotions we want to express. I think that
emotion and atmosphere are the essential in music and all
the means that enhance them are justified. Of course we have
a number of dreams and things we want to realise. In order
to get there we do set „short term goals“. There is a number
of musical challenges I want confront myself with – simply
ideas of things I want to try and if they work out, we’ll
incorporate them into a song. Quite some examples of that
can also be found on „The Wing & the Burden“ as well, like
the re-arranged „Danse Macabre“-part in the song „Necropolis“,
the canon-piece (where all the instruments play the same thing,
but not at the same time – intentionally;-)) in „Tiphareth-
the Burning Balance“, a re-arranged part of a piece for classical
guitar by Carcassi to which we added a second guitar part
in „the Rite…“ and so on. Current future dreams are the realisation
of our second album and to do some touring.
7.„In Speculis Noctis“ has been sold as a demo-cd, it
was a highly professional release though that could’ve been
easily released by a label. Don’t you think it hinders the
right sight of people on your work to degrade such a release
to demo?
Rahab: I don’t see it as a degredation. When we made „In Speculis
Noctis“ we wanted to make a statement with that release, like
„this is what we are capable of on our own; we believe in
what we’re doing and we dare to invest in it ourselves“. The
statement was not only addressed to others, but also to ourselves.
I am very proud of that release and I am happy we did things
the way we did. We had received a contract-offer from a record
label after „When the Cycle Ends“, but since the demo-tape
was more like a polished rehearsal recording, we wanted to
gain studio-experience before recording our debut album. I
think it was a wise decision to do so and we benefitted a
lot from it while recording „The Wing & the Burden“. The basic
purpose of the recording of „In Speculis Noctis“ was a demonstrating
one – even the title of the MCD refers to its demo-character.
„In Speculis Noctis“ simply is what it is: a (professional)
demo and I see no use in calling it differently.
8. Over 1300 copies have been spread of the MCD, which
is again fantastic and more than most labels sell of an average
release. How were you able to do that, and do you think it
was the perfect help for any label you may have signed to?
Have you ever heard of such a selling success a band without
a label gained in the end of the last decade?
Rahab: I’m not exactly sure about the amount of copies sold,
but at least 1300 indeed. We thought it was particularly important
that as many people as possible would get ahold of a copy
and would hear our music – therefore we created a scenario
in which we would succeed in breaking even, but would still
be able to offer the CD for a low price: 10 guilders (about
9 DM). Since the whole lay-out of the CD is prodone it was
easy to convince people to buy a copy. At the Dynamo festival‘99
alone we sold 500 copies in 2 days. I think we spread about
25000 flyers and did quite a number of interviews, also in
bigger magazines like Legacy, Legion and Rock Brigade. I really
must add that we were very lucky in getting a lot of wonderful
help and support from friends – something I am incredibly
thankful for. I guess it is always good for a label if a band
is already know in the underground before they are signed
–I mean, it is likely that it will offer some guarantee in
the sales. On the other hand, before we got signed I had this
thought that labels might think we would be to stubborn and
too much perfectionist, wanting to do things our way. I was
afraid that this could stand in the way for us to get a record
deal – fortunately it didn’t eventually. I really don’t keep
track of sales by other bands, so – no I haven’t heard of
other private releases selling this well, but that might not
be that strange considering my ignorance on other band’s sales.
I know that the demo-tapes of Sirius and Ephel Duath should
have sold 1200 and over 1300 copies respectively…
9. In general, are you of the opinion that it was the right
decision to do a second „demo“? Is there really such a vast
improvement on the album compared to the mini?
Rahab: No doubt it was the right decision – the first time
in the Excess-studios for the recording of „In Speculis Noctis“
we still had to grow accustom to the way things go down in
a studio. It was a good idea to do this before recording our
first album. I remember I was very nervous the first time
– for the recording of „The Wing & the Burden“ we were much
better prepared. We had done a pre-production in our rehearsing
centre, where also studio equipment is present. My entire
attitude towards the recording itself was better I think,
I felt more of a constructive, ambitious tension then a suffocating
fear that things might not turn out as good as I wanted them,
which had struck me the first time I was in the studio. I
certainly think we have improved a lot on „The Wing & the
Burden“ compared to „In Speculis Noctis“. We have chosen for
a more transparant sound, in which all the individual instruments
a separately identifiable. On „In Speculis Noctis“ there were
constanly parts that seemed to drown. We make a kind of music
that is pretty difficult to produce I guess; it’s rather stuffed,
lots of things going on and a lot of details. I think it was
quite a challenge for our producer Hans Pieters as well to
find a right balance in two or three guitarlines and two or
three keyboard lines played at the same time. Apart from that,
our improved playings skills allowed us to have a more transparent
productions, because there were fewer flaws to be covered
op by effects. I think the production is a very honest one.
As for the material on the album itself – though I don’t like
the expression too much, I guess you might call it more mature.
It’s much more complex when you analyse it, but as I mentioned
before the atmosphere should take up the central place in
our music, so it was a challenge to create music that can
be listened to at several levels. I wouldn’t like it if our
music would become inaccesible due to technical twiddley bits
– playing skills are subordinate to the songs, not the other
way around. I think we have succeeded in preserving the atmosphere
and making the songs more adventurous, both to play and to
listen to. This makes things more interesting for us.
10. About one year ago (is it really that long ago... ?!)
you got in contact with the German label Skaldic Art. Probably
it would’ve been possible to sign with any other label I’d
say. Tell the readers what caused you to choose Skaldic Art,
what’s so special about the concept, what is important for
you with a label in general...
Rahab: At the end of 1999, with the help of a very dear friend,
I got in touch with Vratyas Vakyas who had just released the
first two albums on Skaldic Art (by Furthest Shore and Obsidian
Gate). He was the first to show a strong interest in a cooperation
with Ordo Draconis after the release of „In Speculis Noctis“.
We had a great number of long conversations during which we
discussed practical as well as ideological and philosophical
topics, not forgetting the German policy towards killer dogs
and a desire fluid chocolate pudding!! It was clear from the
start that the right intention was there with both parties.
Being an artist with a strong longing for artistic freedom
himself, Vratyas created a label policy in which the artistic
achievements of a band take up a central place. All label
activities are done in a continous consultation with the bands,
so that everything may be done as much according to the ideals
of the bands as possible. Since Ordo Draconis have strong
ideas about how we would like to see things, this is as an
aspect that appealed to us very much. Not to create any misunderstandings:
Vratyas is not some kind of label-slave who does everything
„his“ bands tell him to; freedom only excists within restriction
and it has a „price“: personal responsibility. Through Skaldic
Art, Vratyas offers potential: opportunities that bands can
either take or leave. In either case, they’ll have to take
the consequences of that. In my view that’s no less than reasonable.
Another interesting consequence of Vratyas‘ approach is respectful
and friendly relationship between the individual bands on
the label; bands show interest in what the other bands are
doing and are trying to support eachother and to help eachother
out. I think that’s pretty unique The most important things
we demand from a label in general are total artistic freedom
and decent conditions to record and release our albums (especially
sufficient studio budget, and decent promotion and distribution)
11. How high do you rate the chances of a good development
of both the band and the label in co-operation? Will Skaldic
Art grow with the help of Ordo, and vice-versa? Do you have
any expectations by the way concerning the work the label
should do?
Rahab: I am very fond of figures, but I don’t think I’d be
able to make an adequate estimation of the chance of a good
development for both parties – it’s not that I am that sceptic
about the odds. Skaldic Art’s label policy deserves a lot
of respect in my view, but it’s not without risk. Though sticking
to ideals can be very rewarding and is a whole lot more important
than making lots of money, it sometimes has a high price in
financial terms – I hope that will never be an unovercomeable
issue for Skaldic Art. Of course I hope we can grow together
and that our cooperation will be fruitful for both parties,
but it is impossible to actually predict such thing. The only
thing that I do know for sure is that we will, or as a matter
of fact, already are doing our very best to support both Ordo
Draconis and Skaldic Art. Both band and label are convinced
of eachothers qualities and are both optimistic and curious
about how things will develop with the new releases (apart
from „The Wing & the Burden“, Obsidian Gate’s second album
„Collosal Christhunt“ has just been released).
12. Is the relation you have with Skaldic Art’s boss Vratyas
Vakyas an uncommon, special one you wouldn’t expect actually?
How important is it for you to have such a personal relationship
in a co-operation?
Rahab: It’s not the kind of relation I had expected myself
at first instance. I had expected a more formal understanding
between band and label… and the formal part is present, there
simply is more. I think I was pretty reserved at first instance
– I mean, I am walking around in the underground long enough
to know it’s wiser to be cautious than to fully trust someone
at first instance. Even if there are no bad intentions, people
often say things in their enthusiasm that they simply are
not able to realise. I guess that’s only natural – though
I think I am reasonably selfconscious and down to earth, I
can’t deny being guilty of over-enthusiasm occasionally. Anyway,
Vratyas‘ competence came shining through soon enough and I
opened up more for the informal contact Vratyas wants to have
with „his“ bands. We are in frequent contact and have developed
a personal friendship over the last year that is very dear
to me. Occasionally we meet each other. I can’t tell how important
it is to have a more personal understanding or even a friendship
with one‘s label-boss, for I have no comparison. I simply
know I am happy that things are the way they are – Vratyas
is an animating, inspiring character, who I respect and with
whom I can disagree.
13. The preparations for the album „The Wing & the Burden“
have been vast again, you even did a complete pre-production
on your own. What was the reason to do that, and did it help
anything in order to improve on the final production?
Rahab: The reason for the pre-production was to get a clear
sight on song-parts that would need adjustment and to get
a view on songs/parts that deserved extra attention in the
preparation. Apart from that, such a recording is perfect
to practice at home by playing along. Though it was a costly
effort, I think it payed off. For me it was a good indication
of what remained to be done before entering the studio. It
was also the pre-production that made us decide not to use
any distortion on the bass-guitar
14. Long before the final recording of the album it seemed
to be clear the both Bob and Moloch intended to leave the
band due. Again, what have been the reasons for these decisions?
Did it influence the enthusiasm and skills in the band in
any way? In the end, it turned out that both members decided
to stay. Did the rest of the band have influence on that or
did they do that on their own? Finally, Ordo is an order,
and somebody can’t leave an order that easily – did that problems
strengthen the order in the end?
Rahab:The whole situation had it’s roots in private life –
I don’t want to comment on that. Due to this there arose a
tension in the band. We came to a point that it was necessary
to have a good conversation and so we did. The outcome was
that Bob and Moloch would leave, but not before the recording
of the album was finished. They saw that it would have been
to big a loss if they wouldn’t at least complete what we had
been working for all this time. From that point everything
was clear and the tension had gone – we only focussed on recording
the album as well as we could. Though the loss would have
been incredible, the rest of the band respected their decision
and aquiesced in it. Ordo Draconis would have continued without
them. The recording of the album, the whole way towards it
and the final outcome were very special for all band members
and led Bob and Moloch to re-evaluate their situation and
made them decide to continue with Ordo Draconis, which is
the best outcome I could have wished for. In some sense the
arriving departure of Bob and Moloch did influence our enthusiasm
and our skills. The album would be the final chapter of a
certain stage of the band. And because there was no case of
personal wars going on inside the band and we had been together
for four years, we were extra motivated to create something
beautiful for this final chapter to which we could all look
back with pride. If we had any influence on the choice of
Bob and Moloch to stay, it would be that we left them their
own choice, which we would respect no matter what. Haha, it’s
not really like we are an hermetic order, though the line
up has been stable for over 4 years. The decision to leave
was very hard on them – it’s not like they were keen on quitting
or anything, and even if they would have left they probably
would have stayed involved as session members („You can check
out any time you like, but you can never leave!“). I can affirm
that the whole situation has strengthened the band; it are
such events that make you realise that you really have something
special going on!
15. Is it possible that some members of the band have very
different tastes concerning music and style in general? If
yes, did that ever cause any problems for the cooperation
and the aims in the band?
Rahab: Na, I won’t deny that we are a bunch of stubborn bastards
with different and diverse tastes for music. But that is something
we new from the start and I think we have found a way to deal
with that. Of course there are moments of discussion and arguing,
but never in a hostile way. In the end we all have the same
goal: creating music that means something to us. We respect
eachother for being perfectionists and each one of us is self-conscious
enough to know he (including myself of course) isn’t the easiest
person to deal with. Most of us are open-minded to experimenting
and incorporating new influences into the songs. Like I mentioned
before – all influences and means are legitimate as long as
the help in creating a certain atmosphere. Bob and Moloch
have a second band (resp. Bad Wurm and Dark Remains) in which
they can use their creativity for other styles of music. I
think the diversity in musical taste has only enriched the
band, I don’t recall situations were it lead to problems.
If someone comes with an idea that the rest of the band doesn’t
like, even after experimenting with it, we just drop it…
16. The style on the album hasn’t changed too much, it
has become technically more skilled, more mature and ripe
and sometimes more aggressive, but still focussed on the atmosphere.
Where do you see the „big“ differences to the former recordings?
In my eyes it’s a pretty complete sounding album, showing
an own style in all songs.
Rahab: It think I already answered most of this question in
my answer to question 9. I pretty much agree with your description
of the changes (technically more skilled, more mature and
sometimes more aggressive, yet still focused on the atmosphere…
could have said so myself, hahaha – I’m going to plagiarize
you on this one in interviews to come ;-)) Na, the changes
you mentioned are big enough for me, together with an improved
production and better and more inventive composing. The next
release might see some more radical differences, we deliberately
shifted those songs to the next album. But like „The Wing
& the Burden“ compared to „In Speculis Noctis“, it will still
be recognisably Ordo Draconis.
17. You’ve compared yourself to Dissection or Arcturus
during the times of the first demo. Both CDs show that you’re
much more independent than you probably guess yourselfs –
so, you aren’t still of the opinion you can be compared to
any band, are you?
Rahab: I wouldn’t put it as strong as to say we compared ourselves
to Arcturus and Dissection – the flyer says „somewhat in the
vein of…“, just to offer some kind of reference. I think it’s
inevitable to give at least some clue or direction of what
you sound like as a demo band. As a matter of fact I think
it’s still important, I mean, not in the sense that we are
copying the bands we mention or that there is a close comparison,
but that our general approach is about the same. Apart from
the fact that I would never have the arrogance to label our
music „totally original“, it doesn’t say shit either… because
what does „totally original“ sound like? It’s more useful
to name some bands, like Emperor and Arcturus for instance…
I think these bands could give some indication of what we
sound like.
18. Most of the music on the album is very well-balanced
between guitars and keyboards dominating the atmosphere, which
is very seldom actually. How do you compose the songs, still
like the years before or did anybody become the musical mastermind
in the meantime?
Rahab: No, the way of composing is still the same – we have
juste started to use computer sofware to help with composing
– the first experiments have come out well. The „division
of tasks“ hasn’t changed much – there is not one musical mastermind
in Ordo Draconis. Midhir, Bob and myself are responsible for
the basic ideas and song-structures and we arrange the songs
with the entire band. In the end everybody is responsible
for his exact parts to play, but we always try to preserve
this balance you mentioned. We still work from a basic concept
or theme for a song, before composing it. The lyrics are written
after wards.
19. Do you write the lyrics to finished songs, or totally
parted of each other? Is it important that both fit together
concerning the atmosphere? Do the members who don’t contribute
anything to the lyrics care about their contents though?
Rahab: No, the lyrics are written when the music is finished.
The lyrics are to delicate a matter to be written separately
– they have to fit into the music perfectly in order to obtain
the right synergy between lyrics and music. Like I mentioned
before the subject or the concept for the lyrics is already
detemined before the composing of the music, so from that
point on, our lyricists (Moloch & Midhir) can already start
working on what they want to put in, but content only take
their final shape when the music is ready. I should add that
it has happened that Moloch completely revised his lyrics,
because the initial ones didn’t satisfy him anymore. I think
everybody in the band cares about the contents of the lyrics,
though not to the same extent. Since there’s a link between
the lyrics and the music it’s almost impossible not to care
about the contents. The topics of our lyrics generally interest
me as a person and I always read the lyrics to a song as soon
as I can. Because I really like a graceful use of language,
figures of speech and the use of metaphors, the lyrics of
Midhir appeal to me most and we sometimes discuss them. I
think his poetic expression and his use of the English language
is of a standard seldomly seen in the black metal scene, even
with bands who have English as their native language. A complaint
for some might be that his lyrics are difficult to understand,
because of his extensive vocabulary and the use of abstractions.
Moloch’s lyrics are much more direct and easier to comprehend
for „sheer mortals“ like myself, though his references to
the occult are often beyond my knowledge. For „The Wing &
the Burden“ he also started using historical events as topics
for his lyrics, like with „The Rite of Catherina de Medicis“,
which is interesting I think.
20. You’ve written about themes that are not very typical
for BM bands I’d say (and actually Ordo isn’t a common BM
band...), even if they fit into a certain „dark“ scheme. Do
the two writes identify themselves with the themes the other
one writes about as well, and is it possible for them to express
the most important things they like to say by writing lyrics?
Rahab: For Moloch it’s a necessity to identify with Midhir’s
lyrics, at least to some extent, because he handles the vocals.
It’s hard for me to judge to what extent the two of them identify
with the lyrics written by the other one. I do not wish to
speak for them. I can only guess about the second question
too and I prefer not to – you really would have to ask the
two of them.
21. The production of „The Wing & the Burden“, carefully
listened to, is one of the best productions that have been
delivered during the last two years in that style I’d say.
How would you describe the main charasteristics of your production,
and why did you choose the Excess Studio? Do you think it
would’ve been possible to get the same result in another studio
as well?
Rahab: Well thank you for the compliment, though there is
always space for improvement, we are indeed quite content
with the production ourselves. I would describe the production
like clear, balanced and definable, but still with power.
We returned to the Excess Studios for a couple of reasons.
First, we were happy with the job Hans Pieters did on „In
Speculis Noctis“. I think he’s a pleasant person to work with
and having worked with bands like Sinister, Danse Macabre,
Houwitser and After Forever to name but a few he’s pretty
experienced. Second, we were already familiar with Hans‘ way
of working and the Excess Studio itself, so we immediately
felt at ease with that. And third the studio is not too far
from where we live so we could go home and didn’t have to
get bored stiff in the studio when there was nothing to do.
In another studio the result obviously would have been different,
but it might have turned out equally good – as long as the
equipment is there, there is an experienced person present
as a producer and we feel at ease recording, we may get a
good result anywhere. A return to the Excess Studios simply
was the most obvious choice and it’s likely we will record
there again
22. You’ve mentioned two things long time ago concerning
the album – the first one was „maybe we’re going to use some
electronic beats“ and the other one was „probably we’re recording
a song that has a pretty folky theme and differs from the
other songs“. Well, nothing has become reality in the end.
Why not?
Rahab: Hey, don’t give up on me too soon. We did compose a
track with a part which has electronic beats, but we decided
to shift it to the next album. In general the next album will
see a little more experimenting in the rhythm section, I think.
However there’s not to much I want or dare to say about it
– sometimes views change. The song with the folky song was
intended to be recorded during the „In Speculis Noctis“-sessions.
There wasn’t enough time though and since the song sounds
rather different from the other material, it was the first
to be left out. I don’t think we will ever record it in it’s
original version, but it’s very well possible that we will
use some of the riffs for a future song. The song was called
„The Ritual“ and it was unique in the sense that it is the
only song we ever composed to whom somebody outside the band
contributed the lyrics. We never played the song live either,
wouldn‘t have been the same anyway, because it was supposed
to contain a rather long accoustic part.
23. Did you already receive any reactions from fans, magazines
etc. for the album? I can imagine that not too many people
will comprehend the essence of the Ordo sound, not explore
the depth you have. Would you limit the circle of Ordo-listeners
if possible, or would you regard it as positive if everybody
tries to listen to it?
We didn’t receive that many reactions yet – at the moment
that I am writing these lines the album isn’t even officially
released. But the response we got so far is pretty good, but
still diverse. Some have told me it’s quite a lot in the vein
of „In Speculis Noctis“ and others said it is way more complex
and that it’s difficult to comprehend the songs at first instance.
As a matter of fact the latter is entirely what we had intended
– listening to the album should be a challenge!, an adventurous
journey on which you discover new details with each hearing
for a long time. However it’s not intended to be so complex
that the complexity becomes a barrier for experiencing the
atmosphere of the songs. The music can be listened to on more
than one level. I once said myself, that after the recording,
I wanted to be able to listen to the album and discover new
details myself despite the fact that I was involved in the
composing; well that’s something we succeeded in. An interesting
aspect is that the people outside the metal scene that I demonstrated
our material to, were very impressed. At the end of last year
I had a guitar teacher over at my place who had graduated
music school and had transcribed clavesimbel pieces by Bach
to classical guitar. He was interested in what I was doing
with Ordo Draconis, so I put on an advance of the album. He
must have told me at least 8 times that he was very impressed
by our music… he only couldn’t appreciate the vocals, haha!
I guess it should be clear from our approach to our music
that we want to offer as many people as possible the opportunity
to have a listen. It’s not our aim to keep our audience restricted
– on the other hand we won’t make any musical consessions
in order to reach a larger audience. But I do hope many people
will make the effort to have a listen to „The Wing & the Burden“
24. On the release party you did in March you’ve invited
100 listeners to be present, not more. That seems to be very
personal. Is Ordo’s music „personal“ music as well, nothing
that could be played besides watching TV or in a club maybe?
If you like, tell something about the success of the release
party and for what purpose you’ve done it.
Rahab: The release-patry was not a matter of personal invitation
or anything. We held our CD-presentation on the 10th March
in Gouda in a place called „De Gonz“. This simply felt right,
because it is there, that everything started and where we
did our first gig and so on. Many regular visitor accompany
us on gigs, no matter where we play. We have a very loyal
following - somethig to be vey grateful for! I was one of
the best days I can recall, with so many great friends being
present, our label mates Vindsval opening up and playing an
excellent and succesful gig and our own gig was one of the
best we ever did I think. The moments of holding our debut-CD
in my hands for the first time and sharing the happiness and
relief with the people who realised this work will stick to
my mind, always! The party afterwards was great as well, as
well as the response from the audience that seemed to be impressed.
What the purpose for the release-party was? Celebrating our
debut album, an effort for which we have worked our asses
off for 4 years, with people who care about Ordo Draconis,
like our music or what ever… To me our music will always be
very personal of course – the first couple of dozen hearings
I wasn’t able to do anything apart from listening and sitting
paralysed. I don’t think there’s any use in saying where,
under which circumstances and by whom our music should be
played. I know I prefer to listen to it when I’m alone.
25. In the very nicely designed booklet one can see that
all members wear paintings, live you’ve played without make-up.
Most people say only „true BM have the legitimation to wear
paintings“, and in fact you aren’t. When and why do you it
though?
Rahab: The use of corpse paint has been a personal matter
and a personal decision ever since the very beginning of the
band. The last couple of gigs no one in the band has used
it, which doesn’t mean no one will use it ever again. To me
corpsepaint is a form of dramatic expression, an emphesis
of the contrast in myself which shines through in our music…
as such it can impossibly lose it’s meaning, which it obviously
hasn’t. However, there are a number of practical reasons,
which led to not using corpsepaint by me. Like I said – it
is an emphasis, not an essential to me, and I decided I wanted
to focus on the essence: our music, at the moment. In a live
environment that is easier for me when I don’t have paint
my face half an hour before I get on stage – I prefer to prepare
myself in a different way. As for „most people“, maybe some
of them would care to explain to me, why it wouldn’t be legitimate
for me to wear corpsepaint. I do think Ordo Draconis play
true black metal in the only sense that is relevant: that
it is sincere, that we are true to ourselves. We do the things
we do for a reason and most of the time those reasons are
well thought through. We do not need or want a fake image
to appeal to other people – this is the same kind of basic
principle I already mentioned in the question relating to
Skaldic Art: the artistic aspect of the music should always
be the essential. We are not going to make music and create
an image of ourselves that’s miles apart from who we are and
what we want to do, just to sell more records or to get more
publicity. There is something like personal integrity and
violating that (i.e. pretending to be something you’re not),
is even worse than musical prostitution (making a kind of
music only because it appeals to others) in my view. I have
been wondering through the black metal underground for over
ten years now and I think that is quite some time to think
over ones personal views concerning the music, the scene,
etc. I wonder what convincing argument „most people“ might
have, that would deny me the use of a well-thought-through
and suitable emphesis of the music that I have (partly) composed
myself. Apart from that, I am always kind of curious what
criteria people have for judging how „true“ a band or a person
is. I sometimes have the impression that „most people“ (for
I don’t believe it are most people) have the interesting and
sophisticated belief there exists a connection between „trueness“
and „playing skills“ analogue to the Heisenberg-equation.
(for those, less engaged in quantum physics: the more you
have of one, the less you have of the other)
26. For gigs you have a female session bass player. What
can you tell us about her, except for the fact that she’s
very beautiful and seems to be a good musician? ;-) Why did
Moloch decide not to play bass anymore, not in the studio
nor live?
Rahab: At a certain point Moloch mentioned he wanted to entirely
focus on his skills as a frontman and a vocalist. I also believe
this is the field were his main talents lie. The bass hanging
around his neck had become a burden to him in giving the performance
he wanted to give. So he decided to quit playing the bass.
For studio activities this was no problem at all, because
our other guitarist Bob handles the bass in his second band
so he could easily fill the gap while recording, As a matter
of fact it was even easier to match the guitar and the bass-parts.
For playing-live there was a problem. Fortunately, Moloch
knew somebody perfect for the job, namely Digna. At first
instance she would only play along for a certain period, but
things worked very well: we got along fine on a personal levels
and her skills as a musician are excellent apart from the
fact she really bangs her head off on stage. So we decided
to have her as a permanent session bass-player. Unfortunately,
she recently had to quit her activities for Ordo Draconis
because of her graduation and her own band Imbolc, which is
one of the best upcoming bands from Holland I know by the
way! They play fast black metal double vocals and with touches
of Naglfar and Aeternus, with some death metal influences
as well. They recently recorded their first demo which should
be available soon and which I strongly recommend! At the moment
we are looking for a new, more permant solution for the bass-guitar
live.
27. You still have, with a full line-up, the opportunity
to play concerts. Will you use that chance as often as possible?
There are some rumours of a tour with Falkenbach you may support
if possible. Any other plans for bigger concerts? Festivals
maybe?
Rahab: Until we have a permanent solution for the bass, we
will not actively search for more gigs I guess – for the gigs
that are still planned, Moloch will handle the bass again.
There are no huge gigs or festivals planned. We all have rather
busy lives with demanding jobs and studies. Then there are
things like relationships, second bands and hobby’s like Arco’s
designing activities and his Moongleam Distribution and for
me Mandrake Magazine. Since there are only 24 hours a day
and 7 days a week, it wouldn't be possible or at least desirable
to play each week at least two gigs. But one or two gigs a
month is perfect. It would be fantastic to support Falkenbach
on a tour! Let’s say, I heard the rumour as wel. The intentions
are there, now let’s see if we can make it work. It’s something
I have dreamt of since we began – to go on a tour. My ideas
about touring are really not that romantic, I just want to
experience it at least once. And of course it would be great
to play as a support act for Vratyas‘ Falkenbach, since there
is mutual respect both on a musical and a personal level.
I do not think the gap on bass would offer any serious problems
for a tour, even if therr wouldn’t be a permanent solution
then, I think finding a temporary one should be too big a
problem.
28. Surely you already do have ideas for new songs, and
I have to ask that: how are they going to sound in your opinion?
What will change on the next album? Choirs maybe, that would
suit quite well... ;-) You’ve told me once that you like Indian
traditional music. Will that influence your sound in the future,
both music-wise and in „ideology“/contents?
Rahab: At this point about 4 new song-structuress are finished,
but I wouldn’t be able to give an general indication of the
development. Two of the songs are part of trilogy, a rather
ambitious project about which I do not want to say too much
at this stage, because it will only give rise to expectations
that we may not be able to meet in the end. The whole thing
will have to crystallize a little more. We will need to make
quite some efforts to make the whole thing work and it’s absolutely
sure we will need help from outside the band as well. I am
searching for the right people to do the job. I can say that
it is our intention to experiment some more with vocals and
rhythms… so choirs… who knows? I have a rather broad taste
in music nowadays. Next to metal and classical music, I listen
a lot to Dead Can Dance, Loreena McKennitt, Faith and the
Muse and Govinda. Wordly and traditional music in general
interest me, though I do not have a very large collection
myself. A friend of mine introduced me to some traditional
Indian music and I thought it quite interesting. I doubt it
will have an enormous impact on what Ordo Draconis sounds
like, but of course it does influence me to some extent and
it might always lead to some experiment. From an ideological
point I don’t think there will be any influence.
29. You’ve planned to record two songs for your solo-project
some time ago, that seems to have been canceled in order to
make the Ordo album as perfect as possible. Are you going
to work on it again now? Any news about how it would sound,
any details?
Rahab: It’s not a solo-project really, it is rather personal
though. As a matter of fact these are the two songs of the
trilogy I just mentioned – initially there were only going
to be two songs, but it turned out a third one would fit into
the concept as well. So the project wasn’t called off, it
was only shifted to the next album, because it would have
been too ambitious for a first album or a 7“. I think I have
told everything I wanted about the songs in my answer to the
previous question. If I ever will do a solo project besides
Ordo Draconis, it is probably going to be on acoustic guitar.
Most of my contribution to our music is composed on acoustic
guitar, but throughout the years I have composed a number
of pieces that I do not wish to, or can’t be used for Ordo
Draconis. I guess I would like to record those once, but we’ll
see.
30. Alright then, seems to have become a longer interview
though... ;-) Are you a friend of „last words“? If yes... if
not, tell something different. ;-) Thanks for answering!
Rahab: First of all, a major thanx to you for this fantastic
interview as well as for everything you have done for us in
the past. I think I have said more than enough to hold my piece
now. People interested in knowing our band some more can also
check our website at www.ordodraconis.com, where they can download
some of our music. Hopefully we’ll be able to do a number of
gigs in Germany soon!
Mir-h iD & Rahab interviewed by Bertrand Garnier of Imhotep Zine
Welcome to Imhotep, Rahab! I was having a look at your (excellent)
website the other day, and saw this FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
sections. I suppose it is intended at avoiding the same old
boring introducing questions like bio and such, isn’t it?
Midhir:
Hi Bertrand! I’ll be taking over from Rahab for the most part,
so you might have to slightly adjust a few of your questions.
Rahab has relieved me of some of the questions though. About
the website. Absolutely, some questions are asked in virtually
every interview we get. The FAQ section could be a helpful resource.
It would be a painstaking and time-consuming exertion to wade
through all the interviews to find the answer you’re looking
for. Anyway, here is your long-awaited interview:
1. So my first question will be: why did you choose the
name Ordo Draconis? Could you please introduce the band, its
members and your musical concept?
Midhir:
Well, after my modest entrance, I’ll give you a cursory band
history. Ordo Draconis was formed in 1996, and after a change
of drummer we had the line-up as it has been up till now,
which is Rahab (guitar), Bob (guitar), Moloch (vocals), Arco
(drums) and I, Midhir (synthesizers). The first demo we produced
was “When the Cycle Ends” (1997), which wasn’t initially intended
as a demo, but that’s how things eventually came about. The
reponse was excellent (it has now sold out at 1234 copies).
At the time we felt it wouldn’t be wise to plunge into the
studio for a full-length album. We felt we still had to learn
one thing and another, and so we recorded “In Speculis Noctis”
(1999), this time in a professional studio. “In Speculis Noctis”
was really a positive statement which confronted the world
(actually ourselves) with what we were capable of, even at
that early stage when you are still a demo band. Actually,
the demo-MCD is often confused with a MCD for that reason.
The response was even better (even as the popularity of black
metal was declining). After a little while we inked a deal
with Skaldic Art Productions, and so it happens that our brandnew
full-length album “The Wing & the Burden” has officially been
released since 02-07-2001.
2. Furthermore I am curious about why it took so long
to come to a record deal?... please... Seriously now (don’t
answer to the first part!), how did you get in touch with
Skaldic Art, which is a rather starting up label, and what
were the determining facts that made you join their roster
– as compared to other offers you may have received?
Rahab:
At the end of 1999, with the help of a very dear friend, I
got in touch with Vratyas Vakyas who had just released the
first two albums on Skaldic Art (by Furthest Shore and Obsidian
Gate). He was the first to show a strong interest in a cooperation
with Ordo Draconis after the release of „In Speculis Noctis“.
We had a great number of long conversations during which we
discussed practical as well as ideological and philosophical
topics. It was clear from the start that the right intention
was there with both parties. Being an artist with a strong
longing for artistic freedom himself, Vratyas created a label
policy in which the artistic achievements of a band take up
a central place. All label activities are done in a continous
consultation with the bands, so that everything may be done
as much according to the ideals of the bands as possible.
Since Ordo Draconis have strong ideas about how we would like
to see things, this is as an aspect that appealed to us very
much. Not to create any misunderstandings: Vratyas is not
some kind of label-slave who does everything „his“ bands tell
him to; freedom only excists within restriction and it has
a „price“: personal responsibility. Through Skaldic Art, Vratyas
offers potential: opportunities that bands can either take
or leave. In either case, they’ll have to take the consequences
of that. In my view that’s no less than reasonable. Another
interesting consequence of Vratyas‘ approach is respectful
and friendly relationship between the individual bands on
the label; bands show interest in what the other bands are
doing and are trying to support eachother and to help eachother
out. I think that’s pretty unique The most important things
we demand from a label in general are total artistic freedom
and decent conditions to record and release our albums (especially
sufficient studio budget, and decent promotion and distribution).
It is obvious that are demands for such a small band as Ordo
Draconis, but Skaldic Art meets them practically all. We have
entire artistic freedom, the studio budget is huge for bands
of our commercial standard and distribution is partially handled
by SPV… what more can a small band ask for? Well we are always
able to come up with something more, haha…
3. The way I see it, the label’s signing policy up to
now is very much based on the owner’s tastes, rather than
leaning on sales potential, trends and stuff. Still each release
stands for quality and freedom of creation. Do you see yourself
pursuing your whole career in this “friendly” environment,
or is there a chance you would give in to the sirens of a
comfortable financial deal ensuring the band headlining tours,
big merchandising, something like that?
Midhir:
Indeed, it seems as if music business has become increasingly
more commercial these days. As a result, you can see that
some labels have been drastically putting over the helm as
to switch over from black metal to death metal. Sure, I think
it’s a great relief that our label owner is supporting music
on the ideological basis of his tastes, and I’m afraid he’s
among the few. Such an attitude as his is valuable for the
music scene in general (not just for the bands), since, whether
you want it or not, the listener’s taste is largely dependent
on the labels, since it’s them that are largely responsible
for the financial support of their bands (studio, perhaps
new equipment, etc.), their promotion (including advertisements,
merchandise, tours), and the availability of their albums.
And if indeed bands are selected on commercial criteria, well
need I say more. In the long run it may also affect musicians
since for the most part they are listeners, too. Certainly,
as a listener you’ve got some autonomy, but it just requires
a lot of time, money and effort to maintain your musical tastes.
An essential point I‘d like to draw attention to is the absolute
artistic freedom which Skaldic Art grants us. Vratyas Vakyas,
our label boss does not meddle with our writing music or anything,
which is not so obvious as it may seem prima facie. Another
strong suit is that, as the man behind Falkenbach, he is personally
familiar with our concerns as a band. At the moment, the subject
of other contracts is immaterial, especially since we have
signed for two more albums after “The Wing & the Burden”.
4. And one happens to think of some of those “big” formations,
who are offered such a studio budget they can afford almost
everything. Nothing against that, but it is a bit sad to see
how those persons lose control of the band’s raison d’être
– even style – and become simply unable to stand fully behind
their music in the end. I mean, look at Dimmu Borgir on album
and then on stage… When it comes to Ordo Draconis, you guys
don’t exactly play what I would call easy-listening music.
However I sense a soul, an entity behind each facet of the
sound. What are your requirements when you enter a studio?
To what extent are you involved in all the steps of the recording,
mix, etc.?
Midhir:
As for your view on Dimmu Borgir and other black metal pop
stars, I have the same feeling with a lot of recent pompous-like-an-airbag
American films, which seem to rely for a great deal on spectacular
visual effects, but are a little empty as regards content
(expensive and cheap at the same time). Likewise, the flipside
of the coin with a good production can be that one puts too
much faith in the way it would bombard the senses. I mean,
with a good production you can make a lot of things sound
impressive, but if it stops right there I’d call that flatulent.
Don’t understand me wrong though. I do revel in the plentiful
opportunities of production. Did you know they are developing
recording and playing equipment, based on the use of four
speakers? Imagine what kind of ambience that would make. In
some way, sound engineering could be something of an extension
of your music, a kind of additional band member, who by regulating/manipulating
frequencies and the like can marvellously accentuate, and
even create, shapes and timbres. For interestingly manipulated
drums, for example, I’d refer to Dodheimsgard “666 International”.
The role of production depends very much on what you want
to do with your music. So, in my opinion, Darkthrone’s “A
Blaze in the Northern Sky” has a good production, but only
because it so wonderfully answers the dark purpose of their
music. As you say, we don’t play easy-listening music, and
for such a multidimensional music to convey as we make a well-balanced
and transparent production is indispensable. Interplay is
a vital aspect of our music and so to distinguish between
the multiple layers that are at work is essential. Furthermore,
I would say that the dynamics, which are obviously already
part of the composition, should be underscored in the production.
Not to forget that the album should rock big time (I like
this cheesy expression). We opted for Excess Studios (Sinister,
Danse Macabre, Houwitser) mostly because of our earlier, rather
satisfactory cooperation on “In Speculis Noctis”. Yes, we
were very much involved in the recording/mixing/mastering
process, even a little more than we were on “In Speculis Noctis”
actually. At the same time, the fact that our producer was
now more at home with our wishes was also greatly to our advantage.
5. By the way, how does an Ordo Draconis show look like?
I have heard positive echoes so far. Do you manage to reproduce
every nuance of the music live?
Midhir:
I don’t think it’s a matter of really emulating the album
up to each and every bit. First, there are inevitable barriers
of a practical kind. You really have to make impossible claims
if you want to have the perfect sound, balance and all that.
Even the finest cream of the crop equipment cannot meet such
requirements. Second and most importantly, a stage performance
is essentially different from an album, for instance as to
how interaction works. Playing covers, keeping contact with
your audience, being actually visible to your audience, and
the sense that what you hear is played live probably all contribute
to an intimate atmosphere. Unlike an album, you can respond
to the public. For instance, when a few people yelled “Slayer,
Slayer!”, we indeed replied by playing Slayer. Also, and I
think this is the quintessence of a stage performance (and
probably of pop music) as opposed to an album recording, it’s
more a matter of feeling the music with its vibes and pulses
instead of closely listening to it. I’d call that organic
in a literal sense, as it appeals far more to the physical
level of experiencing music, particularly with this high level
of decibels. That’s why people are moved to bodily react to
the music (excluding throwing tomatoes) in the widespread
manner that we understand as dancing (does this sound too
much like an old black-and-white documentary???). You may
also experience music while sitting in your chair or lounging
in your divan, but I won’t go into such ecological matters
right now. Live we are a little rawer and more unpolished
(partly out of necessity). Whether we manage to convey those
vibes I’m not really in the position to answer, but it’s at
least our intention and the overall response, as observed
from verbal signs and wildly moving limbs in the crowd, does
seem to confirm it. I also adjust my sounds to the live environment,
taking into account the acoustic leeway in such a situation,
with any luck like the way dance/techno DJs and artists know
(intuitively) what frequencies have what effect at a high
intensity of volume.
6. Of course there is this question whether your singer
Moloch has to undergo a vocal cord transplant after each concert…
Having in mind his feat at the end of “Turpentine Chimaera”
(just to name that one), I will just refuse to believe you
if you tell me that the vocals have been recorded in one day.
How do people seem to react to his voice? I could easily understand
if someone said it is much too extreme to fit the music, so
at the end of the day how would you justify this component
of Ordo Draconis?
Midhir:
Honestly, Moloch doesn’t do his vocal cords as much damage
as you imagine. He has taken some singing lessons, as to avail
himself of his lungs and probably also to learn how not to
ruin his vocal cords. Actually, he doesn’t have to exert himself
very much in order to realize those rasping vocals. Paradoxically,
it’s still calm and relaxed, which I think is part of the
charm. I believe Moloch is able to even prolong that long
cry at the end of ‘Turpentine Chimaera’ (although doing that
would be pointless). The vocals were not recorded within a
day, but the reasons for that didn’t have to do with the state
of his vocals but with our timetable. If I remember correctly,
he got a few evening leftovers or a few hours in between and
that’s basically it (which was enough). I’m not that much
aware of the response we received, but I think his vocals
have provoked mixed feedback. Some think they’re brilliant,
others find them too abrasive, and some people are more fond
of those screamy Children of Bodom-alike vocals (I for one
don’t), and think Moloch’s vocals are unexciting. I prefer
the rasping cutting edge of his vocals, and that’s all that
matters to me. The vocals may be among our raw edges, but
I don’t feel like polishing everything. It’s good to hear
we have a controversial issue here.
7. Back in Ablaze #37, you reveal that Moloch and guitarist
/ co-composer Bob were about to leave the band at some stage.
How did it come to this situation? Honestly, do you think
that Ordo Draconis would have withstood such a separation,
be it in the short or long term? I think of the band’s obvious
unity…
Rahab:
The whole situation had its roots in private life – I don’t
want to comment on that. Due to this, a tension arose within
the band. We came to a point that it was necessary to have
a good conversation and so we did. The outcome was that Bob
and Moloch would leave, but not before the recording of “The
Wing & the Burden” was finished. They saw that it would have
been too big a loss if they wouldn’t at least complete what
we had been working for all this time. From that moment on
everything was clear and the tension had gone – we only focussed
on recording the album as well as we could. Though the loss
would have been incredible, the rest of the band respected
their decision and aquiesced in it. Ordo Draconis would have
continued without them. The recording of the album, the whole
way towards it and the final outcome were very special for
all band members and led Bob and Moloch to re-evaluate their
situation and made them decide to continue with Ordo Draconis,
which is the best outcome I could have wished for. In some
sense the arriving departure of Bob and Moloch influenced
our enthusiasm and our skills. The album would be the final
chapter of a certain stage of the band. And because there
was no case of personal wars going on inside the band and
we had been together for four years, we were extra motivated
to create something beautiful for this final chapter to which
we could all look back with pride. If we had any influence
on the choice of Bob and Moloch to stay, it would be that
we left them their own choice, which we would respect no matter
what. Haha, it’s not really like we are an hermetic order,
though the line up has been stable for over 4 years. The decision
to leave was very hard on them – it’s not like they were keen
on quitting or anything, and even if they would have left
they probably would have stayed involved as session members
(„You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!“).
I can affirm that the whole situation has strengthened the
band; it are such events that make you realise that you really
have something special going on! It’s only a subject for speculation
if Ordo would have been able to overcome the “loss” of two
of its members – I think the order would have survived, but
the band would have changed shape, more radically then we
are continuously doing by evolution.
8. How long do you respectively practise your instruments?
I must say I have been struck by the technical level, way
above average for a black metal outfit. Keyboarder Midhir
has certainly been offered a piano when he was still shitting
in his diapers…
Rahab:
Well, when we started out with the band, Bob was the only
band member who had been playing his instrument for more than
a month. Midhir and myself, we had just bought our instruments.
Midhir started to play synths about a month after we had started
out. I must add that we did have at least some musical experience
before starting with Ordo Draconis. Midhir had been playing
drums and guitar for a couple of years and I had taken lessons
in playing classical guitar for some time. The drummer we
had when we started playing had just started out as well,
but it soon became clear that he wasn’t able to catch up with
the rest of the band fast enough. That was the reason for
his departure and Arco’s entering. Arco had been playing drums
in some small local bands for some years.
9. Let us focus on the just-released album if you will.
I haven’t heard your earlier works, but let me risk a parallel
between “The Wing & the Burden” and a theatrical answer to
Arcturus’ “Aspera Hiems Symfonia”. Would you agree on that
statement? Generally, how do people categorise your album?
Are you amused by the comparisons, the superlatives employed
– thinking of how you wished the music to turn out?
Midhir:
About the comparison with “The Wing & the Burden”, perhaps
that’s the most accurate description I’ve ever come across.
I’m not very fond of us being pigeonholed, but it’s inevitable
I guess. So far the reviews have been overwhelmingly positive,
but since I have only cursorily glanced at them, I’m not sure
how they’ve categorized us. At the moment, if a ‘blackish’
metal band includes synthesizers as one of the instruments,
whatever they do with them, they tend to get compared with
bands like Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir. It’s the same
rationale that makes us sound like Cannibal Corpse because
of the use of two distorted guitars. Let’s hope people will
really listen to the album, and also take the time for it.
10. Is “progressive” a term you would accept or deny?
Midhir:
I would accept it as a compliment. I hope it’s true.
11. I am curious about the lyrics of “The Rite of Catherine
de Medicis”. Even though I do picture the story itself quite
well – being French – I thought them to differ from the usual
way lyrics are put down. It’s sort of a prosaic narrative
style, as if one was just reading a history book. How did
you come up with that idea? Will you develop these history-based
concepts in the future?
Midhir:
Not being the lyricist behind ‘The Rite of Catherina de Medicis’
(that’s Moloch), I can’t tell too much about it, but to a
certain extent I do know what it’s about of course. ‘The Rite
… ’ is set in 1574, two years hence from the bloody St. Bartholomew’s
Day Massacre in 1572. I imagine Catherina de Medicis (1519-1589)
has been a most remarkable woman. The storyline for that song,
which I think Moloch found either in Bodin’s “La Demonomanie,
ou traite des Sorciers” (1587) or in Eliphas Levi (or both),
recounts how Queen Catherine fell back on the black arts,
when King Charles IX was lying sick of an unidentified terminal
disease. She consulted a lapsed Jacobin cleric, who was himself
conversant with the black arts, and performed a ritual by
which she would invoke a hellish spirit. Nevertheless, the
king kicked the bucket, and the eldest son became King of
France at the early age of ten, so Catherine de Medicis could
become Queen Regent . . . Definitely, the words are put down
in a matter-of-fact style, clearly not implying any judgment
on the persons/characters or any supposition of the truth
further than we know it as such. Obviously, the style is slightly
paradoxical, since what is presented as historical truth is
actually based on fiction. At least that’s my impression.
For all I know I could be telling sheer nonsense. Anyway,
we’ve got another semi-history-based song on “The Wing & the
Burden”, and that’s ‘Necropolis’, again set in France. The
actual setting may not be historical, but the event in retrospect
is. In 1832 Paris was unpleasantly surprised by an uninvited
guest. Whilst there was a merry masquerade going on during
carnival, cholera broke out and played the partypooper. We
still have a literary account of that left, which is of no
importance here, and a woodcut tableau, which kind of formed
the basis for my story. It represents Death with a violin
or a similar instrument outrivalling the mortal musicians
of the parade and winning the day. As you’d expect from a
song with themes from Saint-Saëns’ “Danse Macabre”, the dead
are resurrected and perform a kind of dance. They appear to
be the victims of the epidemic of 1832, including the musicians,
and have an argument about things. In the end, Death harangues
the corpses and wins the day again, or night actually. I can’t
recall whether we’ll be using particular events in history
for the next album. As not everything’s written, who knows?
History is alive with fascinating stuff, so it would be likely
for us to again draw on history sooner or later.
12. About “Wreckage” now. This song is the longest of
the album, and for me it is a 5000-pieces puzzle. I have the
impression you made many different songs (or fragments of
songs) collide into one, but maybe I am wrong… Will you please
scrutinise the genesis of this song for me?
Midhir:
Well, ‘Wreckage’ is a dark song in its own strange way and
does have a complex origin, both musically and lyrically.
Oddly, it seems as if the jinx that haunts the journey described
in the song had also troubled the composition of both music
and words. Don’t think that the daemon of inspiration is necessarily
so pleasant as one imagines. The lyrics have gone through
a gruelling process of expunction, rewriting, revision, and
deepening. As a text which works on so many levels, it’s also
a song which is more open to interpretation than any other
of my lyrics for this album. Apart from the demo-song, it’s
also the oldest text. Basically, it describes how a man at
sea is swept away by a tempest and is shipwrecked, clashing
with the cliffs of an island. Having once climbed the perilous
cliffs, he discerns through the dense forest a glade and a
lady making up a bed. For some reason he is beckoned over.
On his way through the forest, he is at strife with himself
but he ultimately arrives at the glade. The man cannot accept
to rest here: “Of what green’s that sheet of moss / With which
my bed she drapes? / Nothing more but the ambiguity / Which
consuming decay or growth shapes, / A sheet with which to
smother me, / Makes me argue the self-imposed toss.” Enchantment
cannot make him stay, and so he is allowed to embark on a
new voyage. “Wreckage” includes a lot of evocative, often
disturbing, images, which were insistently and feverishly
preying on my mind. Perhaps that’s the part of the jinx I
was talking about. I had to let my unconscious speak, as usual,
but I could never attain what I was aspiring to, whatever
that was. You can hear in the song that a dynamic force is
at work, but the motivation and direction are uncertain. Unlike
you imagine, it’s not built of other songs or fragments. Perhaps
the song is literally a wreckage, all pieces of the puzzle
having a common history. In the same way, the grammar is intentionally
broken at places.
13. And by extension could you explain how it works when
Bob, Midhir and you come up with your parts at the rehearsal
place? How long does it take to finalise the instrumental
frame of a song? Is it a peaceful process, or does it sometimes
lead to conflicts between individuals?
Midhir:
Oh we have fights all the time. Music is serious business,
and, as in every serious business, people get hurt. Seriously
now, I’m glad we don’t have a systematic approach to such
things, which is impossible with three creative mavericks
anyway. Generally, we come up with a few ideas to fit within
a certain frame of reference, and work them out. Also, that
frame could take form during a brainstorming of some wild
suggestions. It hasn’t come to great conflicts up till now,
and we’re wise enough to know that bolshie behaviour only
obstructs the course of things. Of course it’s a thing of
giving and taking, but if we encounter a disagreement while
discussing things (which keeps things lively), we always search
for the best way possible to put things right.
14. You included “A Crimson Dawn”, a song that originally
appeared on your demo “When the Cycle ends”. In a way I could
have guessed that this song was an older one, as – to my modest
ears - the mood-driving balance within this song is like 66,6%
keyboard and 33,3% guitars, whereas it is 50-50 the rest of
the time. What was your purpose for putting this song on this
album, at this place in the middle of the track-list? What
are the modifications you brought to the early version? I
could bet you have improved – if not added – the solos.
Midhir:
Strange. My contribution to that song is not that significant
as compared to the rest of the album. Anyway, being the very
first song for “When the Cycle Ends”, it’s more traditional,
a bit like early Ulver, and some thrash metal (roughly). Why
we recorded it again, is because (especially) this song deserved
a new recording and a bit of a new approach. As we have it
now, the sound has been much improved, as well as the level
of musicianship. At the time, using real acoustic guitars
wasn’t practicable, as we had to record all songs in one take.
Luckily, we could use them as we wished this time. Furthermore,
we dropped the female vocals and replaced them by tin whistle
and low whistle, which are played by a multi-instrumentalist
folk musician. Bob improvised this dual with the low whistle
in the studio, as it was there that he first heard the part.
I’m not sure but I think Bob improvised the rest of the solos
as well, like he did on the original recording. We also reduced
an episode, which got a bit too long. Being an older song,
‘A Crimson Dawn’ is a kind of relief, which would for that
reason have its most favourable position somewhere about the
middle of the tracklist.
15. The two last songs “Tiphareth – the Burning Balance”
and “Necropolis” bear classical music stigma in their textures
– not only because of the Saint-Saëns-adapted part in “Necropolis”.
Why do I smell a baroque scent somehow? Do you curse me if
I say that “happy” parts lie hidden within those songs?
Midhir:
Actually, classical textures are pervasive throughout the
album, except for ‘A Crimson Dawn’. About, “Tiphareth – the
Burning Balance”, it’s more anything like a smirk or the veneer
of a smile that I hear other than what you call ‘happy’, in
particular the main riff and the central episode in canon.
For “Necropolis” I deliberately tried to blur the distinction
between the tragic and the comic, so you’re probably fooled
if you think it’s happy (and so you are if you think it’s
sad). Seeing as I have given a few rough outlines of ‘Necropolis’
above, you may understand this a little better. There are
quite a few puns and tongue-in-cheek jibes that may have a
tragic undertone. The concluding invective by Death is as
follows: “Agile fools, do no trim – as ye define - / My fearsome
form of old / With frothy flattery; / Timeless air I breathe
as to engulf / Such outcries brief and bold. / Casualties,
as ere long the loyal dawn / Shall Nature from Her apogee
/ To her source restore. / True to form, the honours of last
word, / Last laugh and dance are mine / To be.”
16. Over the whole album the lyrics, whatever they deal
with, are of an upper-class standing. Those written by Midhir
proved however frustrating as I had to look up for every second
word in the dictionary… I have difficulties figuring out how
and when such intricate lyrics can come into play within the
song-writing process. Could you help me out on that?
Midhir:
And I was thinking they were easier this time. I’m sorry for
difficult words here and there, but I select my words and
phrases on the strength of two criteria: their exact meaning
and connotation, and their sound/colour. It’s not like I’m
trying to impress people with my vocabulary. Fathoming the
lyrics does require something of the reader, I’ll give you
that, but in the end it is more rewarding than your average
‘Hail Satan’ or ‘the vampire’s gonna bite you’ lyrics. I have
given you some details of the backgrounds of my lyrics in
this interview, so that could be of any help to you (and to
the readers). I don’t have a fixed methodical approach when
writing lyrics and combining them with music. It starts with
an idea or ideas which should stir my imagination (though
never to the extent that I’d be writing fantasy lyrics), often
images which steadily assume feverish shapes and are ultimately
worked up into lyrics. Basically, the music should be written
before I can compose verse along with it. Although the general
idea is there prior to the composition of both music and lyrics,
you need to know your metric leeway in the framework of the
song first.
17. I have a mate who belongs to an ornithology club.
They are about to sue Ordo Draconis at law for bird slaughter!
Who is the mind behind the magnificent artwork of “The Wing
& the Burden”? What does it actually symbolise in connection
with the album’s concept? (if there’s a concept whatsoever…)
Midhir:
Thanks for your appreciation. It’s mastermind Arco who is
our graphic wizard and devoted bird-watcher here! We first
discussed what would work as a model for the album’s concept,
toyed with a few ideas, and eventually we came up with this.
It does reflect the mechanism of the wing and the burden.
Don’t think of merely linear forces which cause a movement
up or down. The interference is highly important, because,
for instance, a heavier burden can make the wing stronger,
or the wing may even constitute the burden, or the other way
around (we even had a discussion whether to use ‘and’ or ‘&’,
but because of the mechanism it seemed wise to use the one
as it is now). The general idea here particularly derives
its fascination from the way it is explored in the lyrics
and music. Back to the album cover. The blazing globe is of
course the sun, but it need not be identified as such. In
a way, it’s slightly anti-black metal to depict the sun. Perhaps
we should deliver sun glasses along with the album. Anyway,
it might bring you to associate it with the Fall of Icarus,
or maybe with the myth of Prometheus, as fire is an element
both creative and destructive. But even without such allusions,
you can figure out the thematic relevance yourself now.
18. Please let me congratulate you for your very stylish
corpsepaints. You know that most Scandinavian precursors are
giving the whole thing up these days, while most Central and
Southern-European bands continue the tradition. Personally
I think there are no grounds for raising a debate about what
appearance a black metal band should have, but as it seems
all the same important to many people, would you please give
us your point on the matter? Does make-up help your self-confidence
on stage for instance?
Midhir:
Yes, another controversial issue! Thanks for your appreciation.
I suppose you are referring to the pictures in the CD booklet.
I favour them myself. The effect is almost cartoonesque, not
in a burlesque way (another time), but rather strangely distorted
in colour and surreal, hovering somewhere midway between reality
and fiction, especially with the outlined shreds dangling
in the forefront. Some film covers, and a taste of the Batman
TV cartoon, are the closest indications I can think of right
now. It’s as if we’re trying to escape the two-dimensional
confines of the booklet. There is one thing though, which
is, my neck looks like a second chin, but I’m not going to
ask you what you think about our ‘gorgeous’ hairdo, don’t
worry. By the way, it’s Arco again who deserves all the credit
for these stylish graphic metamorphoses. However, I’d like
to say now we’ve renounced corpse paint these days. I understand
you’d be deceived by the CD inlay and promotion pictures,
but future shots of us and stage performances will be without
corpse paint. Now and again I’m a little surprised about the
importance which people attach to corpsepaint, and I realize
such a step as we have made could disillusion a few people,
but we’re band of artistic integrity. Obviously, we’re not
making music with the purpose of winning respect and honour,
or money. That’s what people did in the Middle Ages. However,
we do owe you an explanation. In my opinion, the whole thing
was getting old very fast. It’s a bit odd to see us progressing
while still abiding by the olde cosmetics, a mode of expression
which has been repeated ad nauseam, and only faintly modified
by us. I’m glad that the pictures discussed above are different
for that matter. We’ve been considering to do something else
instead, something that would be more closely related to Ordo
Draconis, but nothing has been decided so far.
19. You have a very tight relationship with the German
band Enid, don’t you? I heard members of Ordo Draconis had
even offered their skills when Enid were looking for musicians…
How do you feel about them having a stable line-up now? Do
you fancy their kind of fantasy-folk-metal?
Rahab:
I’m not really sure if it is right to say that we or I have
a very strong relationship with Enid as a band, but one of
Enid’s band members, Florian, is a very dear friend of mine.
It really is beyond words to describe what he has meant for
Ordo Draconis as a band so far and what he means to me personally
as a friend. Apart from that, I think that Enid is a very
good band that has something to add to the metal scene. I
think their music is unique and that composer/keyboard-player/vocalist
Martin is a very (multi-)gifted musician. Somebody that I
would enjoy working with! It was me who offered his modest
skills in favour of Martin’s compositions some years ago –
Flortian had told me that Martin would like to play live once
and we were thinking about ways to realise that. I’m not sure
that I would have been able to add the right aspects to Enid’s
music, but I would have loved to give it a try! However, the
fact that we live far apart in different countries didn’t
make it very practical to join Enid and it would have been
impossible to rehearse on a regular basis. I listen to their
“Abschiedsreigen” album quite often – as a matter of fact
I am hearing it this very moment, so yes, I obviously like
their music. I know they have a complete line-up nowadays
– I have even heard some first recording that sounded promising
alright and I am very curious what the future will bring for
them – from the rumours I have heard, Enid is headed for a
bright and ambitious future and I do not wish them anything
less!!
20. I also think of your label-mates Obsidian Gate, Rivendell,
Vindsval or of Draconis Sanguis, Dornenreich and so on… Would
you speak of a new generation of young talented musicians
rising at the core of Europe, who are about to make a wind
of freshness and unbound creativity blow over the scene? With
all due respect for the oldies, do you think it is about time
people stop looking back on the classics and always searching
traces of Bathory or Darkthrone in the music of today?
Midhir:
I’m not so up to date actually, so I wouldn’t know what is
happening at the moment. Most stuff that I’ve heard recently,
wherever it hails from, does not appeal very much to me. In
my more active years as a listener, I noticed Austria was
producing quite a few interesting bands, like Korova (now
called Korovakill), Abigor, and Summoning, but I can’t tell
much more. I do recall now there’s this Italian duo called
Ephel Duath, which I’m very keen on. About the second part
of our question, metal has often been pretty conservative.
I’ve found that part of me is still conservative, still enjoying
traces of Darkthrone. The sad thing is that most copycats
are not able to capture an atmosphere like Darkthrone did.
Perhaps it’s just that there’s a latent potential that I hope
will be more fully exploited in the future. Still, (black)
metal often wearies me for being so terribly ordinary and
unimaginative. If what you refer to, is indeed true, then
that’s a good thing.
21. Will Skaldic Art be able to organise a tour soon?
I dream every night (I do!) of a showbill with Obsidian Gate,
Ordo Draconis, Falkenbach and a few others… Don’t you think
that would rule?
Midhir:
I can be very short on this, because nothing is certain yet.
There were some tentative plans, but I can’t tell beyond that.
Perhaps we should arrange a few shows in dreamland, with high-quality
equipment to vivify your sense-experience in dreams. I’m not
sure about the possibilities, but in that fashion we might
do a brilliantly surreal and grotesque performance.
22. However hard I search, when it comes to a Dutch scene,
I can’t see farther than female-vocals-oriented bands like
The Gathering, After Forever, Orphanage, Within Temptation,
or a few death metal pioneers (Thanatos, Threnody…). Do you
have relations to those bands? Do you hope to become the “ambassadors”
of the Dutch black metal scene, which has been rather discreet
until now?
Midhir:
You are right that we are among the few black metal bands
in a haystack of death metal and doom/death bands here in
The Netherlands. We have a lot a good-quality death metal
bands around here these days. I’m not so sure about relations
with other bands. Some of the other guys are much more involved
in the ‘scene’ than I am. Of course, it would be good to be
considered the best black metal band from the Netherlands,
but I don’t feel any responsibility to the scene, as such
a term as ‘ambassador’ would imply.
23. About you Rahab, for how long has it been you goal
to play extreme metal in a band? Could you name one (or more)
album(s) that gave you the push to grab a guitar and start
playing? From now on, could you imagine carrying on an “everyday
life” without music?
Rahab:
The first ideas for starting a band arose when I was fourteen,
but it took a number of years before thing finally started
roling. It was already back then that Bob, Moloch and myself
wanted to form a band – so it shows once more that patience
is a good thing! I don’t think there was a particular album
that was the major incentive for me to start playing guitar,
but like I mentioned before, I started out playing classical
guitar. I already listened to metal back than and I did want
to play electric guitar sooner or later but as incedible as
it may sound, I wanted to have the right musical fundaments
and technical skills before starting to play metal. I thought
that taking some classical guitar education was the right
way for establishing that. Looking at it now, my assumption
back then weren’t very right. It requires different skills
and techniques to play electric guitar compared to acoustic
guitar, but I am not saying that it was utterly useless or
anything, not at all. And apart from that, playing acoustic
guitar did broaden my musical horizon – I love the instrument
despite the fact that I am not particularly good at playing
it. And to tell you a small secret, if I were to chose between
electric guitar and acoustic guitar I would chose the latter
because of its acoustic honesty, purity and innocence. With
an electric guitar you can cover up fuck ups while recording,
in principle that’s impossible with an acoustic guitar or
acoustic guitar. Fortunately I do not have to chose! I do
believe that starting by taking some classical guitar influenced
my approach in playing and composing – I am very fond of incorporating
influences from classical (guitar) music and using typical
chord structures for Ordo Draconis’ music. Another band, one
that I am very, very fond of, where this shines through more
pominently is Obtained Enslavement on their “Witchcraft” and
“Soulblight” albums. A life without music is beyond my imagination
– I am always occupied with music in one way or another. Even
if there are no instruments or stereo equipment present, I
just try and do some composing in my mind. Music is so much
more effective and efficient in expressing than words in my
view and on the other hand it leaves more space for personal
interpretation – I sometimes think that the way to know me
best is through “my” music.
24. All right, I guess I have stolen enough of your time
now. I can’t think of a better conclusion than you quoting a
few lyrics of “The Wing & the Burden” that mean a lot to you.
Then don’t forget to leave your contact and web address, and
basically anything else you’d like to add…
OK, thanks for the interview and good luck with your magazine.
I’m afraid this interview has turned out to be a little long-winded,
even by my standards. Then again, you may consider this as an
important in-depth interview in the history of Ordo Draconis [ahum].
We’ll put this on our website, if you don’t mind. I find it
difficult to give quotes in isolation, because they usually
make more sense in their context. Anyhow, the following lines
are from ‘Necropolis’:
“Unruly Law,
I may loathe how with contenders Thou viest,
When masked ’mongst a masquerade all the more
All having en masse enticed.
“Yet I owed to Thee, which Thou didst confine,
Ambition not unspoken for,
But Thou canst not ever Thyself undermine,
Hence mute is Thy music: Encore!”
Rahab interviewed by Negru of Negura Magazine
01. Salut! How are things going on for you there?
Rahab: Greetings Negru; it’s an honour to be given the opportunity
of being featured in your magazine. I hope you’ll excuse me
for starting off with this trivial ass-kissing, but fact is
that I’m pleased with our presence on these pages – “ideology”
and “professionalism” often appear to be mutually exclusive.
Only few zines succeed in working their way around this Heissenberg
equation, but I consider Negura one that found the formula.
For me personally, life has known more joyful days. I feel like
in a constant sleeping paralysis right now – every effort to
create movement and change remains unrewarded. The worldly body
seems unresponsive to the powers of my ego, at least for the
time being – so patience is being challenged. I will bother
neither you nor your readers with the insignificant details
of my personal life (though insignificance is a relative concept
in this matter, obviously) and I’m sure I’ll be aroused and
released from this bodily captivity again. As for Ordo Draconis,
for the time being it is the exception to the aforementioned.
Though quite a number of hurdles remain to be taken still, we’re
gradually progressing towards the recording of our 2nd album.
In that respect, the current situation is quite satisfying.
Creativity is finding it’s way to the songs and crystallizes
down wonderfully. The process of ripening of the songs however
is one that requires time, so I think we’ll record the album
somewhere in the middle of ’03. The ambitions we have and the
way we translated them into goals and ideas makes me very enthusiastic,
though it will be hard to realize all we would like.
02. Could you start by presenting us a bit Ordo Draconis?
Not just the usual bio, but maybe why you started the band,
how did your achievements influence you… more like the experiences
beyond the facts…
Rahab: To start a band was a dream that was born long before
Ordo Draconis was actually founded. I think it goes back to
’91 already – Midhir, Bob, Moloch and me have known each other
for quite some time. Unfortunately music and playing an instrument
is not stimulated here to the extent it is done in Scandinavia
and it proved to take 5 more years to actually start a band.
The initial motives to start Ordo Draconis? During the early
90’s we discovered the underground scene of doom, death and
in particular black metal. The music and the entire mystifying
ambience of the scene back then made such an impression on
us that we wanted to become a part of it, to contribute to
it, to add something special, something good, something personal
to it. The years prior to Ordo Draconis’ birth most of us
already discovered we got great satisfaction and fulfillment
from expressing ourselves through music. Midhir, Bob and myself
already played together a number of times. In May ’96 I finally
confronted Moloch; that if we were ever going to start a band,
it was then. Hence we started looking for other band members
who were easily found among our friends. In September ’97
we started off for real, playing cover tracks. The line-up
back then consisted of: Moloch (bass/vocals), Bob (guitar),
Arco (drums), Midhir (synths) and me, Rahab (guitar). Most
of us were new to their instrument at the time, so we started
playing cover tracks, to tighten up as a band and to become
more skilled at playing. It turned out that Timo, the drummer
we started out with, could not keep up with the speed of progress
and our ways parted in early ’97. He was instantly replaced
by Arco and we started out with composing our own songs. Compared
to our current speed of songwriting we were very productive
at the time, hahaha. The first 3 songs, that later appeared
on the “When the Cycle ends” demo were completed in 2 months.
It is funny looking back at those days – we were so highly
motivated to create ourselves a name and reputation within
the international underground scene and we compensated our
lack of skills with a boundless enthusiasm to reach beyond.
From the beginning we decided that we would never do things
in a crappy way though – we would either make the best effort
we could or not make the effort at all. And clearly our approach
worked: we received a very good response to our concerts and
with 1234 copies spread, I believe, despite the fact it is
actually a polished rehearsal, “When the Cycle Ends” is one
of the more “successful” Dutch black metal demos. We received
some serious interest from record labels in response to the
demo, but we decided that we wanted to gain more experience
before recording an album for a label. For this reason we
recorded the self financed demoMCD “In Speculis Noctis” early
1999. I still believe it’s one of the most professional efforts
to be released by an underground band; the album was recorded
in the Excess studios, where bands like After Forever and
Sinister also recorded their albums. Everything was done “pro”
and we were paid in kind: the investment we had made was huge,
but we reached break-even in no time, selling 800 copies within
6 weeks. I guess it will not be too difficult to imagine how
satisfied we were with our accomplishment. “In Speculis Noctis”
received a lot of attention in the international metal press,
with excellent reviews and interviews in major magazines like
Legacy (GER), Legion (RUS) and Rock Brigade (BR), which is
almost unheard for a small underground band like we were.
Through a dear friend of mine, we also got in touch with Vrayas
Vakyas of Falkenbach, and label owner of Skaldic Art Productions.
He had just released the first two albums on his label and
showed his sincere interest in a cooperation. In the course
of several conversations we established a very good and friendly
understanding, resulting in the recruitment of Ordo Draconis
for the banner of Skaldic Art. In September 2000 we recorded
our debut CD “The Wing & the Burden”, which was released in
the course of the next year. I think “The Wing..” was a huge
step ahead compared to “In Speculis Noctis”, even tough the
progress might seem less striking compared to the progress
between the two demos. I do not recount how often I have listened
to the album, filled with a great sense of pride. Despite
the many aspects we would do differently now, the album did
turn out like the adventurous musical trip I had intended
it to become, with new elements to be discovered with each
hearing. Because of the large amount of details and subtleties
in the compositions we had chosen for transparent productions
from which the composition profited a lot in my conviction.
It was with this release that I first felt I could take myself
seriously as a musician, who was able to contribute something
decent and substantial to a recording. I do not have a very
high estimation of my own playing skills and I had always
felt I had more a role as a composer than as a musician, but
at least my conception of the balance shifted somewhat with
this recording. After the release a rather turbulent period
in the life of Ordo Draconis began; Midhir went away to Ireland
for 9 months and during this period Moloch and Arco decided
to leave the band. It is obvious that this intense phlebotomy
had a huge impact on the band and made the remaining members
evaluate what to do. We decided to head on and found two new
members to team up with permanently: Berry on bass and Tyrann
on vocals. Where Berry was quite new to the scene, at least
as a musician, Tyrann had already earned his medals as the
vocalist of our Luxembourgish label mates Vindsval. Till date
we have not found a suitable replacement on drums, so we’re
using computer right now. It’s not 100% sure yet if we’ll
record the next album with a flesh and bone drummer or with
his digital equivalent.
03. I saw you don’t enjoy talking too much about your
personal lives apart Ordo Draconis. But maybe you could explain
what the band means for you? How did it influence you as a
person? I guess you started the usual way, with the intentions
to put into music & band something from inside of you. But
have you reached the opposite point, when music & band make
you different, draw you into something new?
Rahab: It’s almost impossible to try and start explaining
what Ordo Draconis means to me; you might just as well ask
what I mean to myself, because Ordo Draconis is part of me.
The easiest way to view it is like a musical diary I guess
– it represents who I am. My contribution to our songs marks
specific elements of my life. This contribution can be found
on various levels, like song-concepts, song structures, actual
riffs and melodies up to tiny details like specific sounds
or samples. It can be derived from a general interests in
certain issues and themes, a sense of admiration for artistic
expressions by others, up to the impact of very specific events
in my personal life. Especially in the case of the latter,
not even my fellow band members are aware of the exact ideas
behind a piece or idea. The interesting thing is that the
same holds for the other contributing members, so the songs
become a kind of synergetic blend of our personalities. However,
contrary to a diary, where thoughts and emotions are expressed
through words, our songs remain subject to interpretation
to a much larger extent, also to us though we are involved
in the composing. Many aspects put in by the other members
will never be completely fathomed by me, at least its origin
won’t. Yet, I am able to open myself up to their ideas and
to the songs in total and interpret them both in a rational
and in an irrational way. I think that, with respect to the
influence Ordo Draconis has had on me I could make the distinction
between my view on the scene and our contribution to it, my
taste in music, my skills as a composer and a musician, and
finally my personality. I’ll start with the first – playing
in Ordo Draconis has confronted me with a number of aspects
of the underground scene and the music industry that were
new to me. Apart from that, the underground scene is a dynamic
entity itself of course and a lot has changed since the early
nineties. I think the (black metal) underground has become
more dispersed – the coherence and support of the early nineties
has vanished, which is an obvious development for an expanding
entity. Maybe you could say the scene had reached its critical
mass. Apart from that, the black metal scene has been commercialized
– on the one hand I do not have a problem with that, because
many bands that are selling well these days have played a
pioneer’s role in the scene or have accomplished something
worthwhile before growing bigger. On the other hand, with
black metal being hyped it has become clearer and clearer
that sales are for sale – integrity and idealism have vanished
in the policy of many labels and magazines. The key question
is: “How can we draw money from this?” In order to make money
they must have a product that appeals to the potential buyers,
so the appearance should be good. In itself that’s a good
thing, but unfortunately, the quality often stops with the
appearance resulting in: glossy magazines with a poor content
and pages filled with expensive advertisements, and reviews
and interviews that have been bought or have been included
as a return favour for buying an advertisement. I think not
many metal fans, that claim to be rebellious and individualistic
in nature, are hardly aware of the extent to which the humbly
swallow what is put on their plate by record labels and magazines.
I think it’s a current development that can be seen among
record labels – competition has increased – the smaller ones
are going bankrupt, except for a few specialized ones with
a more loyal fan base. My view on the scene has grown more
skeptic because of what I have seen while playing in Ordo
Draconis. Due to the expansion and the commercialisation the
mysticism of the black metal scene as a whole has vanished,
many bands are more worried about their image than about their
musical accomplishments and the scene has become a breeding
pit for childish quarrels. For these reasons my affinity with
the black metal scene as a whole has decreased. This does
not withstand, it still is the scene I feel closest related
to and there enough excellent bands and interesting people
around if one knows where to look. As for my taste in music
– it has expanded more into other musical genres. To me, music
is all about the expression of specific atmospheres and emotions.
All means that enhance the transmission of the emotion or
atmosphere are intrinsically justified in my view. In that
sense there are no principal style barriers. My view on composing
music is like my philosophy of life, eclectic in nature. While
composing music for Ordo Draconis it became evident that influences
from musical styles other than (black) metal were most appropriate
in some cases. This sense of musical freedom is crucial for
our way of working – we will not use “strange influences”
just for the sake of experimenting, yet only in a functional
way. I have become more open-minded to music, because of a
growing interest in how other band and projects approach the
expression and transmission certain feelings. Due to this
I’m able to appreciate (functional) experimentalism more these
days, and I guess I’m more “trained” to listen to more diverse
and complex music. I needs little discussion that our skills
as musicians and composers have grown throughout Ordo Draconis’
existence. When comparing the compositions on our first demo
to what were doing now… there are worlds in between. I do
not mean to say that the songs on “When the Cycle ends” are
bad songs. They just represent another stage in our development
and terms like good and bad are meaningless in that context.
I know quite some people who prefer our first demo over our
debut full length – fortunately I also know people with preferences
the other way around. One thing is sure though, composing
songs like we did back then was a lot less time intensive,
hahaha. It was more like, making a number of ideas fit together
within a certain frame back then. Nowadays the compositions
are much more subtle, the connection to the concept and the
lyrics worked out more intensively and much more attention
is given to the arrangements. Composing consists of a lot
more talking now. Our increased musical skills provide us
more freedom for expressing what we want. Finally, Ordo Draconis
has influenced my personality, because on a personal level
I draw a reflection from the music I compose. It is like writing
in a diary again – writing down the words is capturing the
thoughts and emotions, which works confronting in a way. While
writing, the ideas are being processed and put into a perspective
frame. I think the composing of music works on a more abstract
level and deals more with pure emotion and feeling then with
its rationalization, but the basic principle is the same.
In that sense Ordo Draconis’ music in general, and my contribution
in specific has worked like a kind of mirror to me.
04. It seems there have been a lot of changes on the band
lately. Could you tell us what happened? Have the things cool
down now?
Rahab: Well I mentioned the changes in the line-up already
in your second question. It was April of this year that Arco
and Moloch parted ways with Ordo Draconis. We parted in a
good understanding by the way, we even played a farewell gig
for them. Especially Moloch could no longer relate to the
musical directions in which we were heading. Arco’s reasons
for parting have remained more obscure – he told he lacked
motivation to do a good job. I think he had difficulty coping
with the complexity of the songs and the new songs demanded
some rather difficult drum work, which was giving him a hard
time. Apart from that, circumstances had been rather demotivating
on him; Arco had been giving his very best in supporting the
band and beyond througb sales and lay-out activities and was
frustrated in his work through outside forces. This summer
Moloch and Arco teamed up again to form a new band, in which
Bob also participates, by the name of Weltbrant. They play
a rawer more typical kind of death/black metal if I should
believe the sounds, with influences from the early black metal
bands and a bit or rock roll feel to it alike Carpathian Forest.
Of course with their departure, Moloch and Arco left a huge
vacancy in more than one sense; we had basically started out
together and we had been playing together for over 5 years
going through the entire development of the band together.
Of course such an event is not taken lightly. It was a hard
decision for them to make, but I agree that it probably had
become inevitable. The time directly afterwards was very hard,
Midhir being in Ireland and Berry still being a session member.
Midhir and Bob and myself had some intensive e-mail communication
in which we decided to continue and ask Berry to team up as
a permanent member. The guys from Vindsval had become friends
of hours after playing some gigs together and doing some heavy
partying. After he had heard the sad news, Tyrann from Vindsval
offered us his services. His enthusiasm was so boundless,
and his qualities as a front man and vocalist are of such
a high standard that we decided to ask him in despite the
large distance he lives away (about 500 kilometers). Apart
from his motivation and musical and qualities as well as qualities
as a front man – for we were very well aware that a front
man like Moloch would not be easily replaced – Tyrann has
a splendid character that fits right in with the other band
members, so we get along just fine. Next to that Tyrann’s
view on music are more in league with Ordo’s remaining members
than Moloch’s. We played him some new songs when he visited
us recently, and he was highly impressed… so no problems in
that field. The position of drummer is still vacant, and considering
the rhythmic experiments we have incorporated into the new
songs, it will be difficult to start working with a real life
drummer again. We are programming the drums for the time being
– maybe we’ll record them for the next album in this manner
as well. In studio drums are digitally corrected and sampled
anyway. One thing is certain though, our new drummer will
have to be an open-minded person and he shouldn’t be scared
of some bits and bytes, hahaha.
05. Are you now also ready to do some live gigs? Have
you played live a lot in the past? How do you experience a
live performance?
Rahab: At the moment we aren’t prepared to get on stage again.
Because we are fully focussing on preparing for the recording
of our second album right now, arranging things for playing
live does not get much attention. The drums of the “old” songs
still need to be programmed. I have to admit I’d like to do
some gigs again – it has been such a long time by now and
though I am not really the stage maniac within the band, I
enjoyed the last number of gigs we did quite a lot. In the
past we did quiet a few gigs, I think a little over 40 or
so, including some in Belgium and Germany. To me concerts
are events that are to be taken individually, with a chaotic
character in the sense that it is practically impossible to
predict how they will develop in their course. If the bridge
between us, the band, and the audience can be crossed it can
be a magnificent and intense event – if not it can be dreadful.
Though some audience is pleasant, the amount of people present
is not decisive for making the gig “a success”, nor is the
sound quality or even how well we played the songs. It simply
seems the magical potential is there or it isn’t… though it
will always requite hard labour “to make it happen”. I think
the way I experience a live performance is reflected in the
way I am on stage: introverted yet intensely experiencing,
which is indicative for me as a person I guess.
06. You are label mates with Obsidian Gate’s. What do
you think about their music? I think they’re quite close to
your own style, yet while you’re a bit more open in your musical
approach, Obsidian Gates are more close to what’s Black Metal.
Rahab: I am afraid I have some news in this matter, for Obsidian
Gate or no longer on Skaldic Art. They have recently recorded
three new songs for a MCD, which has been released in a limited
edition of 300 copies by the guys themselves. It’s a truly
awesome piece; their best so far without doubt! As for the
musical resemblance, what can I say; of course there is some
resemblance: in both bands the keyboards take up a prominent
role. On the other hand, Obsidian Gate’s music is much faster
and like you say, it’s closer to “conventional” black metal
– if I can use this term in relation to their music. Their
new stuff is a little more progressive by the way – probably
the reason why I like it better, together with the very good
production. I like their music, but I do not really think
it is that close to ours – guitars are more important in our
compositions and our influences and songs are more diverse.
07. I also noticed you’re truly open-minded when it comes
to your music. As open-minded is not the best way to describe
Black Metal, I’m curious on what you consider Black Metal
to be, and on how you see the relation between your music
and Black Metal.
Rahab: Hmmmm it kind of surprises me that you already noticed
that we are that open-minded when it concerns our music on
“The Wing & the Burden”. What can I say… wait till you hear
our second full length “Camera Obscura”, hahaha – I think
it will turn out much more progressive; even a bit avant-garde
probably. Well as for the whole “labeling-business”, I am
not too much into this pigeonholing. Some time ago I read
the term “post black metal”, which appealed to me a lot… And
by the way – you don’t think black metal is open minded? I
think it is one of the wonderful things about black metal:
that it is hardly defined by its music, so in that sense yes,
I do believe it is open minded at least when you compare it
to death or doom metal for instance. It ranges from Dimmu
Borgir to Abruptum, from Mysticum to Obtained Enslavement,
from Beherit to Emperor to mention just a few dimensions.
Are you able to define black metal in musical terms? I’m sure
I could find a counter-example to almost any definition. Because
it is so hard to define black metal and opinions differ, I
can hardly comment on how our music is related to black metal,
I just know how I experience it. Anyway, I already had so
many (senseless) discussions on what black metal is or should
be and how I should or shouldn’t label my own music… or even
funnier people telling how we should change in order to become
a black metal band. Like I mentioned before, black metal is
the musical genre I feel closest related to, the scene I have
followed most intensively; my CD-collection mainly consists
of CDs in this genre – but when composing music one of the
last things on my mind is: “Is this black metal or not?” As
an artist it’s completely irrelevant – we compose and play
our music primarily for egocentric purposes, to give expression
to specific emotions and atmospheres. Anything that helps
transmitting those is intrinsically legitimate, so basically
there are no fundamental superposed restrictions except for
the ones intrinsic to our personalities. In that sense we
are open minded indeed, and “true” in the only sense that
matters, namely true to ourselves... I wonder how many “true”
black metal bands can say the same thing. In the mean time,
for the sake of frame of reference, let’s stick to “post black
metal”.
08. What’s the experience of creating music for you? How
do you know which parts fit and which don’t fit with your
music? How about patterns, rhythms, repetitions… how do they
work to create an Ordo Draconis track?
Rahab: The composing of music gives me a huge high – it’s
a wonderful ecstatic sensation, feeling how pieces fall together,
and sensing the synergy between the individual parts. Maybe
it sounds a bit awkward but it’s something really intimate.
Bob Midhir and myself are the ones involved in composing.
We compose our pieces individually and combine them altogether.
All three of us have our own way of composing the pieces…
and if you know our ways of working and our styles, one could
easily recognise who contributed what. Me personally, I do
not use an instrument when composing most of the time – I
hear the music before playing it. Sometimes I play around
with a theme in my mind for ages before I play it for the
first time. It works like a mixing desk with various tracks,
I can hear the parts individually and mix them together. It
required some practice, and it may sound a bit awkward, but
anyway it’s a lot cheaper than an actual mixing desk, haha.
Our music has many secrets..... even for me. It’s like my
diary in a way… or maybe better, it's like our diaries combined
and encrypted to a form that nobody knows or is able to reveal
the complete meaning... but everyone can listen to it and
experience it in his or her personal way…and some people even
enjoy it, haha. There are soo many ideas surrounding the songs.
I recall all the situations of when I came up with the parts
I contributed... That’s how the songs became “charged” and
meaningful to me. There are memories from childhood, things
related to my family - they are all there put into the songs...
and to a large extent not even my fellow band members know.
To tell you the truth, thinking about how to construct the
songs, to give them meaning often requires much more time
than composing the musical themes themselves... The three
of us decide together what parts we will use for the songs.
The criterion is simple: we just know if we want to put a
part in or not. Sometimes some negotiating skills are practiced,
hehe; well sometimes a bit of explaining helps to understand
how a part could serve the song or how it translates (an aspect
of) the theme into music. When composing together, concessions
are inevitable I believe, but we almost always succeed in
finding a compromise, with which we can all enjoy the composition.
For Ordo Draconis the synergy of our individual input coming
together definitely outweighs the aspect of doing concessions.
Like I already mentioned in my answer to the previous question,
all musical means are justified when translating emotion and
atmosphere into music. So in that sense we don’t have an explicit
restriction in style or influence with respect to what parts
we can or can’t use. As for song structures, repetitions and
patterns -it’s difficult to explain that – I would need to
do it on a track to track basis. Especially for the tracks
on the new album, for which the concept and also the structure
was worked out in some detail before composing the actual
music, patterns and repetitions are closely related to the
concept. For some tracks this was done on basis of a story
line, for others the concept was more basic and worked out
through the music. Of course I can’t give away the secret
to creating an Ordo Draconis-track, hehe – before you know
everyone starts producing Ordo-songs. Nah, seriously, there
is no rigid formula to our songs. We start out with an idea,
like “it could be interesting to try and do something with
this and this and that.” If we agree, then we work out the
idea, but it can take many shapes.
09. Ordo Draconis, as a name takes me more into something
like Medieval orders (Templar’s especially), into occult and
magic symbolism. What does it mean for you? Are you into the
fascinating world of such religious and spiritual gatherings?
Rahab: Funny enough, the week you sent me the interview I
had finally been doing some reading on the Knight Templars
again. There is a lot of intriguing mystery surrounding them
and there termination, their Gnostic views interest me much
as well as subjects that are put in relation to the Knight
Templars like the Skull of Sidon, the Grail, the Prieure de
Sion and the Cathars As for our band name, Midhir has written
the following lines to answer the returning question on its
meaning: Ordo Draconis is a Latin phrase which, as anyone
might imagine, translates into English as ‘The Order of the
Dragon’ (although draco could also denote a serpent). We’ve
allowed the band name to be sufficiently elusive and open
to interpretation, not to let any description bridle our creativity,
except for that very part of the concept which embodies our
imaginative freedom. Various interpretations of the symbolic
significance of the dragon are possible, and I’ll try to indicate
a few of them. Let me first bring into play the way the dragon
is included as one of the animal symbols used in alchemy.
The widespread and parallel use of animal symbolism by autonomous
alchemists brought Carl Jung to his theory of the collective
unconscious, so perhaps in that sense the dragon would be
a universal archetype deeply embedded in the human mind. Alchemy
often situates the dragon at both the beginning, which marks
the potentiality of darkness, and, in winged form, at the
end of the moulding process (mind over matter). And so alchemical
writings often present the Ouroborus dragon or serpent, which
bites itself in the tail when the cycle becomes full circle.
With this in mind, I would like to say that there is an interesting
duality of polarities contained within the band name. Down
from the Mesopotamian creation myth (presumably even earlier),
the dragon often embodies the primal waters of chaos (even
as the biblical primal chaos has been depersonified, we can
still retrace its origins to a dragon like Tiamat). Creation
entails the potential of preceding chaos, such as when Marduk
slays Tiamat, and, roughly, so does revolution. Now then,
the first component of the band name would be as ambivalent
in Latin as it is in modern English: ordo is not only a word
for order in the sense of a religious organization or a privileged
class, but also order as opposed to chaos. It’s this cyclic
alternation of order and chaos (perhaps we may speak of the
antagonism, in the muscular sense of the biceps and triceps,
between them), that’s crucial to progress and knowledge. As
such, the name, both on a macrocosmic and microcosmic level,
refers to how growth and progress may issue from the breaking
down of order and tradition. I should hasten to add that among
the potentialities I therefore include the aspect of opposition,
the destructive aspect, that has been typically attributed
to the dragon. I say this from an ideological point of view,
but perhaps we can also find that in myth. Think of the dragon
of which the teeth would grow to be the indigenous people
of Thebes, or of Fafnir, of which the blood would render its
vanquisher Sigurd or Siegfried nearly invincible. Similarly,
but also in many other ways, the name refers to the creative
process of the artist. It’s also about breaking with conventions,
still using the raw material (the potential of chaos) but
manipulating and transcending it like the winged dragon of
alchemy. I would use the term ‘potential of chaos’ in a wide
frame of reference, including among others the amorphous material
that is our perception of reality, and the interior reality
of our subconscious processed and channelled into our work.
In heraldic signs the dragon is often the emblem of sovereignty,
and likewise we assert our wilfulness and our high esteem
of freedom in this destructive and creative process of writing.
Come to think of it, we may see in the myths of dragonslayers
the inability of man to come to grips with unsafe parts of
his nature, those which he feels uncomfortable about and decides
to sort out the easy way, which is slaying. As those internal
parts are ‘externalized’ (can’t find the right word) in the
shape of the dragon and placed at the periphery of existence,
the hero prevails in myth, but would such a repression really
be the solution in actual life? All in all, Ordo Draconis
denotes the organic relationship between aspects like progress,
knowledge, opposition, and sovereignty. Enough about that
now. A sketch of the significance of a dragon should by analogy
be of dragonlike proportion, ha, ha. Another way of explaining
the band name may have to do with the Dutch expression: ‘ergens
de draak mee steken’ (= to mock something). However, the real
reason for this band name is basically because it sounds so
good. Seriously, like my view on the band name would probably
suggest, we haven’t really set ourselves to a clearly defined
concept, although that in itself does imply this concept of
unrestrained liberty to do as we think fit. We ourselves are
the only limits (which are therefore not fixed). I honestly
think it’s better to let the process speak for itself, as
the true traveller is not intent on arriving.
10. I think Umberto Eco’s Foucault’s Pendul describes
an intriguing hypothesis on the role and function of such
organizations (orders) in more recent times. What are your
views on the matter?
Rahab: Eco’s “Foucault’s Pendulum” deals with an intriguing
and to many frightening concept. Let me start off my comments
with a a quote from the book: “Above her head was the only
stable place in the cosmos, the only refuge from the damnation
of the panta rei, and she guessed it was the Pendulum's business,
not hers. A moment later the couple went off - he, trained
on some textbook that had blunted his capacity for wonder,
she, inert and insensitive to the thrill of the infinite,
both oblivious of the awesomeness of their encounter - their
first and last encounter -- with the One, the EnSoph, the
Ineffable. How could you fail to kneel down before this altar
of certitude?” In my view, the above excerpt combines two
of the central notions within Eco's masterwork: the enigma
of the absolute on one hand and human 'stupidity' on the other.
It describes the Pendulum and its connection to the single
unmoving virtual point, the pivot around which the universe
can move. At the same time Eco refers to the human blindness
for the absolute, despite (or maybe even due to) its crystal
clarity. The networks of mystic orders play a somewhat peculiar
role with respect to this relation between the infinite absolute
and finite humanity. Like the main characters in Eco's novel,
people have been searching for this great answer to the question
of 'Life, the Universe and Everything'. In my view this longing
manifests itself in a quest for certainty and control. This
means finding as well as creating patterns, whether it be
laws of nature, moral codes, or aesthetic conventions. Human
life would be impossible without such this sense of structure.
So patterns is what we seek and what we create at the same
time. However these two mechanisms are inseparable since they
are essentially the same. We create our reality by searching
for it and for us the distinction between truth and artefact
(mental construct) is hard or maybe even impossible to make.
Eco points out the terrible consequences of this human 'fallacy':
Within the novel, the search for the grand truth is set in
contemporary time. Three scholarly book editors try to reconstruct
the great secret of the Knight's Templars. This all starts
out as a joke but soon they end up entangled in a web of myth,
created by their own delusive/deluded minds. This self constructed
'truth' has an overwhelming influence on people; it affects
their actions, perceptions, and reasoning ability and it starts
to live a life on its own. In this way we create explanations
and insights that blind us from seeing “the real truth”. Even
though the main characters of Foucault's Pendulum are all
gifted with great reasoning ability (or at least extensive
knowledge), they nonetheless lose touch with reality. This
is illustrated in the following excerpt: “...these are now
people lost in a maze: some choose one path, some another;
some shout for help, and there's no telling if the replies
they hear are other (lost) voices or the echo of their own...”
As for the mystic orders, they are presented as mystifiers
of truth. They are the 'fallible', or actually even the “demonic”
creators and catalysts of this delusive 'truth' that permeates
our reality. Not a very positive conception you would think.
However, the mystic orders play a far more important and in
a way more reverend role. For still, in the eyes of “ordinary”
man, they are the keepers of absolute truth; a truth for some
reason not accessible to us. Perhaps because the power unleashed
by this absolute knowledge would be beyond our might to control
it? Not according to Eco. The key development in his novel
is the revelation of the secret, where it turns out to be
entirely empty. The ultimate mystery is the secret, which
hides nothing but only pretends to do so. In my interpretation
of the book, it is exactly the nothingness behind this mystery,
which ìs the pivot of the pendulum: the absolute turning point
of the universe. When there would be something 'real' to hide,
it would not be constant; for then the secret would be revealed
and its contents would be subjected to the corruption of material
existence. So in fact, there is a twofold movement within
the functionality of the mystic order. On one hand they are
the creators of the veil; hiders of truth, but on the other
hand they are the unaware keepers of this one virtual point,
symbolised by the virtual extension of the pendulum's anchor
point. The pendulum itself stands out as a symbol of pure
and sensible clarity. While the 'believers' seek the secret
truths of the universe believed to be known only to the privileged
cognoscenti/templars/masons the pendulum simply hangs in place
demonstrating the earth's rotation to anyone who cares to
look and think without prejudice. As the pendulum is a material
necessity to indicate the absoluteness of its own virtual
pivot. So the mystic orders, or more in general the human
creation of mystified truth is necessary to be able to experience
the clarity of the infinite: “I have understood. And the certainty
that there is nothing to understand should be my peace, my
triumph.” This is the only constant truth and it is not hidden
but searching for it in the wrong way makes one blind. Let
me close off with a quote from the philosopher Kierkegaard
in this respect: 'The truth is a trap: you can not get it
without it getting you; you cannot get the truth by capturing
it, only by its capturing you.'.. though one by Nietzsche
might be equally appropriate.
11. Symbolism is something you often associate with your
creation… How would you describe the function of the symbol?
Are you familiar with C. G. Jung theory on the matter?
Rahab: I guess Midhir already somewhat anticipated on this
question in his answer to the question on our band name. Let
me start by answering the last question. I am somewhat familiar
with Jung’s theories on the collective unconscious and his
“archetypes” (“symbols” or “unconscious images of the human
instincts”), yet everything but an expert. What I have read
on his theories seems interesting, though I think that in
his enthusiasm for proving his point, his examples are sometimes
a little far-fetched and I have the impression that he pushes
his ideas beyond the field on which they are applicable. I
must admit, I had and to some extent still have difficulty
accepting the idea of an inherited imprint on the human psyche.
I don’t have a problem with the idea, that fundamental drives
(i.e. instincts) and resulting elemental behaviour patterns
are genetically determined and have been passed on for many
generations. Next to that, it seems likely that there is an
inherited component in the human capacity to learn in a structural
sense, so that all humans approach a particular “new experience”
in a same way. What I am not convinced of, or rather stronger,
what I refuse to believe at this point, is that archetypes
(e.g. “the self”, “the mother”, “the hero”, “the demon”) are
“charged” at the moment we are born. Charged in the sense
that an archetype would carry any meaning. The seed might
be present in the sense that instincts are present as well
structures to learn, to conceptualize and to add meaning to
specific concepts. Scientifically it is very difficult to
determine to what extent archetypes are really inherited rather
than generated (or charged) by socially and culturally determined
processes. And it would probably require unethical experiments
(like for instance letting a child grow up in absence of any
mother figure, his or anyone else’s). Of course it is striking
that certain symbols and structures turn up in many (separated)
cultures. Then again, many concepts are so “likely” to be
present in different societies, since they are inherent to
human life and advanced social structures that it seems obvious
these concepts become part of many or all cultures. Inheritance
could still be the case then, but of socio-cultural nature
rather than of a genetic one (or whatever way aspects of the
psyche is passed on). This socio-cultural nature does not
withspeak that these concepts and their symbols and images
are unconscious; in this matter it is ironic to notice to
what extent Christian concepts and morals detemine the way
“satanists” think and behave. The Christian roots in society
are so strong and deep that we often even aren’t aware they
are there. Anyway, socio-cultural values and concepts, both
conscious and unconscious are not present at birth, but learnt
either consciously or unconsciously and this contradicts Jung’s
views, who says the archetypes are “already” present in the
human psyche. What I have read could not convince me of his
view on this aspect. Symbols are meant to express or to refer
to a concept, an aspect or an element of reality in a condensed
and often metaphoric way. As for the function of symbols,
I think that two relevant aspects can be distinguished. On
the one hand there is the “general familiarity” with the concept
of the symbol; symbols for which this aspect is most important
are the more “functional”symbols, like the red cross on an
ambulance, the aesculape on a doctor’s car. On the other hand
there is the “personal charge” given to a symbol; symbols
for which this is the most relevant aspect are the more “personal”symbols,
like a self designed tribal tattoo for instance. Often a division
this clear can not be made, like with the pentagram I wear
for instance; of course it is known for being a “satanic symbol”.
To me however is represents certain values that are (in my
perception) symbolized by the morningstar, that are very valuable
to me as a person. Obviously, with symbols becoming more personal,
it becomes less clear what their meaning is, at least without
additional elucidation. In that sense symbols become more
like focal points to the expresser rather than indicators
to the perceiver(s); what does it mean to me and what do I
stand for is more important than what do I want to get across.
For me the pith and relevance of symbols lies somewhere else
than for Jung – pretty much analogously to our views on life:
Jung tried to reveal the meaning of life, where I prefer to
give (charge) it (with) meaning. I guess my approach is more
egocentric and less fatalistic, though funny enough the consequences
in practical terms needn’t be very big – both views will lead
to a quest for meaning.
12. You[r] album The Wing & The Burden was released on Skaldic
Art. How are your relations with them? Are you satisfied with
their work? Will your new materials released on the same label?
Rahab: Skaldic Art is run by Vratyas Vakyas from Falkenbach.
Since Ordo Draconis joined Skaldic Art in early 2000, we have
developed a special friendship. The large part of our understanding
is non-professional. I think Vratyas has done a lot to help
Ordo Draconis, without imposing any artistical restrictions
on us. He’s not the kind of person who takes the easy way
and he really believes in that bands he has under his banner.
Skaldic Art is a small label, and obviously this implies restrictions.
It is not a label that can send its bands on large tours,
do major advertising campaigns or has its records sold in
every record shop. However the bands on Skaldic Art are treated
fair, getting fair studio budgets and decent royalty rates.
Vratyas is an honest person who has pride in what he does
and tries to do what he believes is the best, both in the
interest of the bands and Skaldic Art. It is most likely that
“Camera Obscura” will be released on Skaldic Art.
13. What would you say is the role and meaning of a label
now? Hammerheart Records seems to be now one of the most important
label in the Extreme Metal scene. What does this mean for
the whole Dutch Scene? Does it have an impact even for an
outside band such as yours?
Rahab: It depends on what you mean by the role of labels.
In my view, for bands labels serve three basic purposes, namely
providing money for recording and touring, distributing records
and promoting a bands and their music. With the improved possibilities
for making good sounding home-recordings, maybe the first
purpose has become less important, at least for underground
acts. In the ideal situation, a label has no impact whatsoever
on “the art” of the bands – but well in an indirect sense
that’s almost impossible. The bit I have seen of the music
industry during the last number of years has given me mixed
feeling towards labels. As artists we do have the ambition
to reach people, preferably as many as possible. Record labels
have the “means” to reach people…but almost inevitably you
enter the game of commerce then. No matter how strong the
ideals of a label (initially) might be, in the end it’s about
money and for most labels bands become “investments”. Just
like on the stock or any market, labels aim for the highest
profit with smallest investment. For the continuity of the
label it is important to make profit, this should be obvious.
The strategy to make profit differs from label to label, but
also between bands on one label. Consequence of this “investment-approach”
is that the “commercial” value and the “artistic” value of
bands grow even wider apart. Hypes and “formulas” turn mediocre
bands famous, because such bands are interesting investments
for labels. At the moment the formula in the Netherlands is
rather simple by the way: find a girl with a cute face, get
her a dress, make sure she doesn’t sing out of tune all the
time, write a dozen of simple catchy songs on a rainy afternoon,
get your drinking lads to pick up an instrument to play them
and you can be sure of a record deal in no time….the rest
is trivial. Wearing gay clothes with the entire band appears
to be an additional advantage though. Of course I’m exaggerating
(a bit), but the bottom line should be clear. To a large extent
it is the way it works, and some awareness of the process
is healthy I think. The general audience swallows whatever
“the big record labels” put in front of their faces, while
there are often much better treats around, at least from an
artistic point of view. The bigger record labels can afford
to buy the exposure – not only advertisements or songs on
samplers, but nowadays interviews and reviews are sold too
in many magazines: bands only get interviews or good reviews
when advertisements or songs on the sampler are bought. It
makes one think doesn’t it? Looking at the current development
among labels I think you can see a polarization: the separation
between “big labels” and “underground labels” is becoming
more pronounced. The “medium labels” are disappearing – they
quit or go bankrupt. I think it might have something to do
with the availability of music on the internet. The underground
labels don’t suffer from it, because of the limited investments,
the limited editions and the hardcore of underground fanatics.
The big labels generally have bigger acts and reach a larger
more mainstream audience – people tend to buy CDs from bands
they are already familiar with more easily. And for new signings
these labels can buy the exposure to obtain a sense of “familiarity”.
I don’t think Hammerheart has a major influence on the Dutch
scene – I haven’t noticed it anyway. They have some, but not
extraordinary many Dutch signings. For a band as Ordo Draconis,
their influence is negligible. Hammerheart is a good example
of a label that started out with a sense of idealism and developed
in a commercial way, signing “names” because they guarantee
sales. These guys from Desekrator for instance must have laughed
their heads of, seeing they could get such crap officially
released.
14. What are your plans for the future? What would you
like to be your contribution to the musical evolution of the
genre?
Rahab: At the moment our future plans are a 100% focused on
realising “Camera Obscura”. The basis of the 7 songs that
will be featured is practically finished, what remains to
be done is additional arranging, and composing the intro,
outro and interludes. The way it looks at the moment, the
album will be partly recorded at home, partly in the studio
where we rehearse and partly at a studio in Germany, where
Secrets of the Moon, Obsidian Gate, Vindsval and Rivendell
recorded their latest efforts. Hagalaz from Vindsval is behind
the mixing desk, and having heard some of the aforementioned
released I can assure you he’s quite a wizard! Unfortunately
the songs on “Camera Obscura” only have preliminary titles
at the moment, so it’s little use giving them at this stage.
The first three songs on the album will form a conceptual
trilogy and will be connected through interludes. In general,
I think the new material and particularly the songs we have
composed recently are more progressive than the ones on “The
Wing & the Burden”, at some points maybe even a little avantgarde.
The range of influences has grown bigger and the more intensive
use of computers and music software have extended the possibilities
to work out a certain idea. The use of “non typical” rhythms
and samples has worked well for the songs I think. However
I wish and can assure that we didn’t hopelessly lost ourselves
in senseless experimenting, I can even assure you that “Camera
Obscura” will sound a lot heavier than its predecessor. Though
I am still happy with and proud of our debut full length we
did learn about things that could and should improve. Obviously
not everything has changed with our (natural) progression,
in some cases the references to our debut are even quite strong.
For instance, like with the “Danse Macabre”-piece by Saent-Saens
on our debut, we have taken a classical piece and incorporated
into one of our songs. We have chosen a splendid piece by
Schubert this time, and the approach and way of incorporating
has been entirely different. What would we like to be our
contribution to the evolution of the musical genre? Even answering
the question seems to be pretentious. I think I would have
to split my awnser up in two parts. We do want and believe
we have something to contribute to “the genre”. However, the
evolution of the genre is fully subordinate to the evolution
of Ordo Draconis as an entity. We want to develop and fulfill
our own musical aspirations – what impact that has on the
evolution of the scene is not really something that’s on our
minds. If we can help the genre to evolve, that’s great, but
what’s most important is, that the means with which we would
do so are ours; that the music remains “our own”, that it
is artistically integer and meaningful to us. So basically
I would like our evolution to be our contribution to the evolution
to the genre, hehe.
15. I guess that sums up everything! Anything to add in the
end…?
Rahab: Well, I guess I have been demanding enough on you, your
readers and you printing expenses. I wish to thank you for this
great interview, I had a good time replying. Best of luck with
your activities in the scene, Negru!
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